Bleed vs Hit Damage- why some 'on hit' bonuses work and some dont? [question]
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So the tooltip for 'bleed' states it scales from pre-mitigation hit damage, but doesn't benefit from bonuses to hit damage like Armour break. But it scales from scaling 'hit damage' from Heft which increases the max bleed dmg inflicted on tooltip.
Why do we have different wording for Heft and Heavy Swing then? Does heavy swing somehow double dip here? Same with passives that have 'hit' specified- do those scale the bleed applied? if yes, why do we have this distinction? What other 'on hit bonuses' other than Armour Break don't apply to bleed here? Edit: Oh right- and what about 'Impale'? will that scale bleed or not? I know it suppose to, and did scale poison but I think that changed? so would like to verify this as well. แก้ไขล่าสุดโดย AintCare#6513 เมื่อ 7 ก.ค. 2025 15:04:16 ขุดครั้งสุดท้าย เมื่อ 9 ก.ค. 2025 19:46:00
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" My guess is things like: 1) Giantslayer - 25% increased Damage with Hits against Rare and Unique Enemies 2) Finality - 120% increased Damage with Hits against Enemies that are on Low Life 34pre98qua
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" i see, so on tree we only find 'damage with hits' which I assume implies only hit damage scales. There is no 'hit damage' on tree, but that is found on heft support which indeed scales bleed. Does that make sense grammatically? my grammar skills are terrible so this doesn't come obvious to me. The only mystery left here is why Heft has it specified as 'hit damage' where heavy swing doesn't. Does heavy swing somehow double dip here? or is there no practical difference here? |
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" What it actually says (with emphasis added) is: " It only talks about modifiers that specifically apply to hits in the specific context of modifiers that affect mitigation, rather than affecting the damage you deal. Modifiers that make your hit deal more damage mean the hit has more (pre-mitigation) damage, and thus inflicts higher-magnitude bleeding. Modifiers that make enemies take more damage specifically from hits (including stuff that affects mitigation directly, such as armour break) don't apply to bleeding, because damage taken is post-mitigaion, so doesn't scale bleeding magnitude, and bleeding damage isn't damage from a hit. Modifiers that make targets take more damage that aren't restricted to hits (such as Shock) apply to the hit, and also separately apply to bleeding because they take damage from bleeding. But they don't "double-dip" - Shock applies to the damage they take from the hit, and applies to the damage they take from bleeding. But Shock changing how much damage they take from the hit doesn't also affect bleeding magnitude, because bleeding magnitude is based on pre-mitigation damage. Damage taken is inherently post-mitigation - the target doesn't take damage until after they've mitigated it. | |
" Ok, the damage taken part is pretty clear to me now, and makes sense. thank you. And I think I figured the Heavy Swing (more phys dmg) and Heft (more hit damage): The tooltip states "[bleed] magnitude is not further affected by any modifiers to the damage you deal." and Wiki states "Ailment damage cannot be scaled directly", Deep Cuts does scales it because it specifies bleeding and 'inflicted' meaning that its not 'dealt' by the skill directly, but rather applied/inflicted by the hit which is dealt by the skill, and the Deep Cuts scaling is rather a special case here. Making Heavy Swing and Heft scaling the same in the case where the bleed is inflicted by a hit (no double dipping), but for a [hypothetical] skill that applies bleed (phys DoT) without the hit portion, neither Heavy Swing nor Heft nor any modifier to damage would work, and it would only scale with Deep Cuts because again bleed is not 'dealt', but 'inflicted'. Please correct me if I'm wrong here. |
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"Going back to the keyword popup again, the part the wiki is drawing on for that is this: "Which is saying that modifiers to damage don't scale the magnitude of the bleeding. This is because otherwise, generic modifiers like e.g. "increased Physical Damage" would double-dip by scaling the physical damage of the hit, and then scaling the physical damage-per-second of the bleeding, which was already based on scaled damage. Deep Cuts applies because it not a damage modifier, is a modifier specifically to "Bleeding Magnitude". The restriction is that modifiers that apply specifically to "damage" can't scale ailments (other than indirectly by scaling the hit that caused them). The distinction in wording between "deal" and "inflict" isn't meaningful beyond being a side effect of that distinction - you don't "deal" debuffs like bleeding to enemies. Damage is dealt, so the ones that are modifiers to damage use the term "dealt". Ailments are inflicted on targets, so the one that modifiers the magnitude of an ailment uses the term "inflicted". Heft being restricted to hits is because of what it does - only hits roll between minimum and maximum damage - damage over time just has a value that's set when it's inflicted, it doesn't have a "maximum" (compare the Hit and Over-Time damage values on Essence Drain for example). So heft's mechanic of increasing specifically the maximum simply isn't applicable to non-hits. |
