Giga-Nerf Blood Mage, life on hit, life regen and life leech in Patch 0.4.0

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Soulsniper1313#7576 เขียน:

That same thing can be said about damage. So in the end all builds die or become the same and there is no build diversity outside what color you want your skills to be.

Okay I think one of us has misunderstood the other. What I'm saying is that if your life regenerates almost instantly, then the only way to die is if your entire hit pool is burst-down instantly. Furthermore, if these builds exist, then the game needs to be balanced with them in mind, and this type of defense can become compulsory.

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Soulsniper1313#7576 เขียน:

Are adding more and more one shots to the game fun? Obviously not. Do I think there are other ways to get around it? Sure.

Please tell me what they are.

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WhisperSlade#0532 เขียน:

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Soulsniper1313#7576 เขียน:

That same thing can be said about damage. So in the end all builds die or become the same and there is no build diversity outside what color you want your skills to be.

Okay I think one of us has misunderstood the other. What I'm saying is that if your life regenerates almost instantly, then the only way to die is if your entire hit pool is burst-down instantly. Furthermore, if these builds exist, then the game needs to be balanced with them in mind, and this type of defense can become compulsory.

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Soulsniper1313#7576 เขียน:

Are adding more and more one shots to the game fun? Obviously not. Do I think there are other ways to get around it? Sure.

Please tell me what they are.

Yes I may have misunderstood on the first but your reply makes me think I was understanding it.

What I am trying to say is you are correct about balance around the build existing which means more one shots. That is what I was saying in regard to damage as well because the fix they seem to employ there is just HP sponges since its being balance around the 20 mil DPS builds.

There are already mods that screw these builds such as the players regen less/slower, the degen auras on abyss, the pools on the ground etc.

I get what you are saying and to be honest my best guess at what they should do is going to require a massive game wide balance sweep where white mobs fall over, blues take 1-2 hits and yellows 4-5 etc. and then allow bosses to be tanky and still have SOME one shots (the highly telegraphed stuff) A good one is the act 2 giant boss when he slams the sword in the middle of the arena and you need to use it as a shield etc.

I look at it this way and hopefully this makes my view more clear...

If you go glass cannon you should be able to 1 tap almost everything but everything can one tap you. That is the trade off the players is willingly making.

Same for being tanky. If I invest so much into defense I should be near immortal but at the sacrifice of taking a long time on bosses.

In this scenario most people would build in the middle ground I would assume so you can kill quickly but can take a hit or two outside the telegraphed one shots.

As it is now, the topic is blood mage, life on hit and regen/leech. The OP wants all of it "giga-nerfed" which means blood magic and the ascendency with it would be gutted. If that regen was not there they could cast a spell every 10 seconds or something. That sounds horrible and can safely say no one would play it.

Look at all the complaints about mana regen for spells and their costs. That is why blood mage and blood magic with massive regen became so popular because mana never is an issue. Now, if it is all nerfed it becomes the same issue.

To my knowledge there is no mana on hit with spells like there is for physical. That node alone is what allows physical characters to even play late game.

To get around it, you can lower the regen etc BUT you would need to severely nerf the costs of skills for blood magic to compensate. So casting is the same as now but noncasting regen is much lower. This would then allow fights to lessen one shots but still make the blood magic user have to retreat in some cases to regen some then reengage.

Another way to help with it could be to give bosses some aura that lessens it some in their presence.

The best fix overall is a complete full game rebalance for all damage and hp and defense values for everything but I think it is safe to say that is not happening.

At the end of the day, I think all these "giga-nerf" threads are counter productive until at least most of the skills / ascendancies are similar in power/use. Same with balance of boss HP and stuff like that. Should a 200 mil dps build be nerfed? Sure. But not gutted. The biggest offenders are always the scalers. Not the skill / items as much.

Infinite Demon Form? Yea, no that should not happen.
Stat stackers were hit hard after .1 I believe. They seem to be in a good place now which is great. But spark in that same league was really hit hard on every level. Is it still usable now? Sure, but I still think they over nerfed it as a whole.

My most important question I have to ask is, if someone wants to build glass cannon and one shot everything or build immortal tanky and slowly kill stuff, why are either a bad thing?

Let's GiGA buff underperforming classes instead nerfing working ones.

Meanwhile, Acolyte of Chayula's Leech from the Sap of Nightmares Notable is still nonfunctional.

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Soulsniper1313#7576 เขียน:

I get what you are saying and to be honest my best guess at what they should do is going to require a massive game wide balance sweep where white mobs fall over, blues take 1-2 hits and yellows 4-5 etc. and then allow bosses to be tanky and still have SOME one shots (the highly telegraphed stuff) A good one is the act 2 giant boss when he slams the sword in the middle of the arena and you need to use it as a shield etc.

As it is now, the topic is blood mage, life on hit and regen/leech. The OP wants all of it "giga-nerfed" which means blood magic and the ascendency with it would be gutted. If that regen was not there they could cast a spell every 10 seconds or something. That sounds horrible and can safely say no one would play it.

Look at all the complaints about mana regen for spells and their costs. That is why blood mage and blood magic with massive regen became so popular because mana never is an issue. Now, if it is all nerfed it becomes the same issue.

To my knowledge there is no mana on hit with spells like there is for physical. That node alone is what allows physical characters to even play late game.

To get around it, you can lower the regen etc BUT you would need to severely nerf the costs of skills for blood magic to compensate. So casting is the same as now but noncasting regen is much lower. This would then allow fights to lessen one shots but still make the blood magic user have to retreat in some cases to regen some then reengage.

Yes I totally agree. This isn't a way "around" one-shots, this is actually exactly what I was proposing. I didn't mean to "reduce regen" but not change anything else, as though it were in a vacuum. Of course other things will need to be changed to balance it. With greatly reduced regen, we would need to:

1. reduce the cost of skills
2. increase the life/mana pools of the player
3. reduce monster damage
4. some amalgamation of the three.

Less resource drain + less regen = attrition gameplay
More resource drain + more regen = invulnerability until one-shot

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Soulsniper1313#7576 เขียน:

The best fix overall is a complete full game rebalance for all damage and hp and defense values for everything but I think it is safe to say that is not happening.

At the end of the day, I think all these "giga-nerf" threads are counter productive until at least most of the skills / ascendancies are similar in power/use. Same with balance of boss HP and stuff like that. Should a 200 mil dps build be nerfed? Sure. But not gutted. The biggest offenders are always the scalers. Not the skill / items as much.

Infinite Demon Form? Yea, no that should not happen.
Stat stackers were hit hard after .1 I believe. They seem to be in a good place now which is great. But spark in that same league was really hit hard on every level. Is it still usable now? Sure, but I still think they over nerfed it as a whole.

It's early access. We can speculate about what they will and won't do, but I'm only concerned about what I think should be done to improve the game.

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Soulsniper1313#7576 เขียน:

I look at it this way and hopefully this makes my view more clear...

If you go glass cannon you should be able to 1 tap almost everything but everything can one tap you. That is the trade off the players is willingly making.

Same for being tanky. If I invest so much into defense I should be near immortal but at the sacrifice of taking a long time on bosses.

In this scenario most people would build in the middle ground I would assume so you can kill quickly but can take a hit or two outside the telegraphed one shots.

My most important question I have to ask is, if someone wants to build glass cannon and one shot everything or build immortal tanky and slowly kill stuff, why are either a bad thing?

I don't disagree with this. The issue isn't tank versus Glass cannon. It's monster damage versus life pool when regen is instant. A tank should be able to take more hits, but not withstand all hits except one-shots. The latter negates all attrition gameplay.

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Addendum: maybe I should make a youtube video about this :\

I think Blood Mage would be fine if everything didn't die instantly and that's a global problem not an ascendancy problem. They made the same mistake in PoE1 as they kept adding enemy density.

They had to make enemies 1-shot players because sustain was so high. Just 15 LoH turned into 3k/s. Same with Leech. Only nerf they managed to make a notable difference was Inquisitor's Consecrated Ground because if has no interaction with enemy density.

Rewarding players with sustain for hitting and killing enemies is tricky and often a bad idea.

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Xzorn#7046 เขียน:

I think Blood Mage would be fine if everything didn't die instantly and that's a global problem not an ascendancy problem. They made the same mistake in PoE1 as they kept adding enemy density.

They had to make enemies 1-shot players because sustain was so high. Just 15 LoH turned into 3k/s. Same with Leech. Only nerf they managed to make a notable difference was Inquisitor's Consecrated Ground because if has no interaction with enemy density.

Rewarding players with sustain for hitting and killing enemies is tricky and often a bad idea.

Yes this. This is pretty much what we are talking about just above.
One-clicking to clear the screen before you get one-shot by something is a natural consequence of having to balance monsters to overcome player 'sustain' as you put it (regen, leech, life/mana on hit etc)

Combat would be much more interesting if there were reduced number of monsters, tankier monsters, but lower damage monsters, more rewards per monster to compensate, and all but eliminating the forms of "huge" sustain which replenishes your life and mana instantly.

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WhisperSlade#0532 เขียน:

Yes this. This is pretty much what we are talking about just above.
One-clicking to clear the screen before you get one-shot by something is a natural consequence of having to balance monsters to overcome player 'sustain' as you put it (regen, leech, life/mana on hit etc)

Combat would be much more interesting if there were reduced number of monsters, tankier monsters, but lower damage monsters, more rewards per monster to compensate, and all but eliminating the forms of "huge" sustain which replenishes your life and mana instantly.

It's a little funny to think back to Diablo 1 which had true Lifesteal. Flat %, historically a very dangerous sustain method and yet it wasn't game breaking.

Less but more meaningful enemies. Damage output which that LS% was based on and interactions like stagger made the Healing spell more ideal. Imagine casting heal in a modern ARPG.

Players inherently heard to damage in PoE because the defense systems are designed to fail. While the damage system just has a few layers to overcome. If you have to put 70% DR on Ubers so they stay alive that's a pretty big red flag. Yet they make the same mistakes in PoE2.

I don’t understand the need to give feedback that calls for nerfs in a PvE game.
I’ve played tons of games, and I get why people complain about playing against certain classes or roles in PvP but in PvE, nerfs mostly affect everyone negatively.

The person who stops playing because their favorite build got nerfed is the lesser experience of tomorrow and maybe even the item of tomorrow if you’re into trading.

How is suggesting nerfs on classes ever helpful in a game where we’re all fighting the environment, not each other?

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Kabajisan#2683 เขียน:

I don’t understand the need to give feedback that calls for nerfs in a PvE game.
I’ve played tons of games, and I get why people complain about playing against certain classes or roles in PvP but in PvE, nerfs mostly affect everyone negatively.

The person who stops playing because their favorite build got nerfed is the lesser experience of tomorrow and maybe even the item of tomorrow if you’re into trading.

How is suggesting nerfs on classes ever helpful in a game where we’re all fighting the environment, not each other?

- Player economy
- Build diversity
- But most importantly, and the reason we're talking about here, is the way the game plays in PvE. "then don't play those builds" too late, the game was balanced with them in mind.

Do a thought experiment: if the player had a skill where you could one-click and do 10 million damage to every monster on the map, should it be nerfed? Well, everything in the game falls onto that spectrum between non-viable, and that. If you don't understand, it's likely for lack of trying.