Parry and blocking has a fundamental design flaw that needs to be changed.

bump

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Gorbarr#2442 เขียน:

"Blocking is unreliable" - You can't block slam attacks because you can't block the ground, like literally. So you dodge or get out of the way. Every time you see an enemy about to do a slamming attack, don't try to block it. That's the easy rule to follow, there's no uncertainty to it.

The issue at the current state of the game is that a lot of monsters >can't be read<, when they are about to slam or they are just way to quick doing so or they do it too frequently when in packs.

If the slam would be >partially< blockable, you would take the same maneuver as any other player: press your defence skill (dodge roll or block) to react to the heavy attack. But the challenge would be much greater to a player who needs to roll away in a certain direction and needs to actually have space to roll away and needs to get far away too (like to take some footsteps before). A blocking player would just rely on their gear and have the numbers work for them. Retalliation players just turtle the whole game, which seems broken to me.

So I would agree, that blocking players too should avoid heavy slam attacks with dodge roll as any other player. But can mitigate all other damage through well timed blocks (or constant blocking, but wouldn't do much damage then).

Extra Idea:
But if you would make block a "perfect timed" skill, like when providing 100% defense in the first 0,5s and then lower it down to lets say 20% or so when the hit is further away from your timed window (like 1s), you would increase the challenge drastically, and still rely on the pattern reading of your enemies.

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mrmood123#6351 เขียน:

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Gorbarr#2442 เขียน:

"Blocking is unreliable" - You can't block slam attacks because you can't block the ground, like literally. So you dodge or get out of the way. Every time you see an enemy about to do a slamming attack, don't try to block it. That's the easy rule to follow, there's no uncertainty to it.

The issue at the current state of the game is that a lot of monsters >can't be read<, when they are about to slam or they are just way to quick doing so or they do it too frequently when in packs.

If the slam would be >partially< blockable, you would take the same maneuver as any other player: press your defence skill (dodge roll or block) to react to the heavy attack. But the challenge would be much greater to a player who needs to roll away in a certain direction and needs to actually have space to roll away and needs to get far away too (like to take some footsteps before). A blocking player would just rely on their gear and have the numbers work for them. Retalliation players just turtle the whole game, which seems broken to me.

So I would agree, that blocking players too should avoid heavy slam attacks with dodge roll as any other player. But can mitigate all other damage through well timed blocks (or constant blocking, but wouldn't do much damage then).

Extra Idea:
But if you would make block a "perfect timed" skill, like when providing 100% defense in the first 0,5s and then lower it down to lets say 20% or so when the hit is further away from your timed window (like 1s), you would increase the challenge drastically, and still rely on the pattern reading of your enemies.

They went over the problems of having to time your shield when they were developing the parry mechanic. No matter what you do it's impossible to be good at timing the shield block because you can't memorize the timing for all enemies or for shielding a pack coming at you. So they made it so that holding it is enough to activate. The prize you pay for turtling is that you do less damage and it takes more time to clear. A lot of people don't use shields or think of their defenses already, so making shields worse would go over most people's heads, but piss off those who do rely on them. I'm one of those people with my tanky huntress, so no thank you.

Let's not also forget that on top of potentially taking a portion of the damage from blocked hits that the heavy stun mechanic is still there. Blocking a massive hit and barely surviving only to get heavy stunned is still a threat that you would need to fear.

What about a Keystone Passive that allowed us to partially block/parry AoE/Slam hits?

something like "can active block/parry all hits. Take 50% damage when active blocking/Parrying a hit.

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DAWSOKJ1988#7370 เขียน:

What about a Keystone Passive that allowed us to partially block/parry AoE/Slam hits?

something like "can active block/parry all hits. Take 50% damage when active blocking/Parrying a hit.

I definitely wouldn't be against that. Anything is better than what we currently have. I will say though that needing a keystone just for active block skills to be dependable would probably feel more like a band-aid fix.

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Gorbarr#2442 เขียน:

They went over the problems of having to time your shield when they were developing the parry mechanic. No matter what you do it's impossible to be good at timing the shield block because you can't memorize the timing for all enemies or for shielding a pack coming at you. So they made it so that holding it is enough to activate. The prize you pay for turtling is that you do less damage and it takes more time to clear. A lot of people don't use shields or think of their defenses already, so making shields worse would go over most people's heads, but piss off those who do rely on them. I'm one of those people with my tanky huntress, so no thank you.

Hm, I don't feel like memorization should be that much of a thing anyway. I think every attack should be able to be read exactly, so it's a matter of anticipation wind up, for these hard hitting attacks. And POE2 is in its current state not doing very well. I don't think we need that much different timings in every attack along all different monsters either, just like 6 or so would be okay for trash mobs, I feel like. The true diversity can come from what the attack does with you, other skills of the mob, its base attributes like movespeed, hp, aoe and espacially like movement or attack patterns. We will have enough to memorize with the bosses. So changing to a timed block would have a lot of rework for monsters at the same time, but could be worth it for the better game, idk.

Less time to kill or clear...I don't see that this is achievable atm, when all the blocking ability is coming from your shield alone. So turtling wouldn't really make a difference in time to kill, while being kind of invurnable, while other classes need to dodge and move or break. But this could be a thing with numbers alone, to feel a true difference in 1h + shield and 2h.

Well, we wouldn't make shields just worse, we are talking about adding block against the slams in addition to less portion of hit prevention, are we?

I think block should reduce incoming damage.
Nullifying demage creates a horrible endgame powerexcalation vs powercreep.

Because how do you suppose to kill a player who have
70% Turtle charm, all res capped and regenerate full hp in 1 second?

In fact block is so utterly off balanced once players hit that block cap they drop armour and starts stacking evasion and Energy shield instead. Because whatever bypass your dmg-nullifier will kill you anyway.
3k hp, 25k armor and you pop out like a soap bubble.

Technically we arent tanks, we are Rupert-tear drops.

Sadly Mark said in the interview that the whole game needs to be completely overhauled to consider to change how shield works.

But personally I think it should be "Guard" when you're using active block.
And passive block reduce incoming damage, maybe giving the option to crit block?

Theres a skill called [Glancing hit] that increase block chance by 30% but 10% of damage will bypass...
And I think that should be the basic, while having a keynote to turn block what we have now (with some downside)

Because lets look at the other way around:
Is it possible to create a warrior that doesn't use shield (and not a crossbow user)?
In 0.1 Giants Blood - Shield was the only valid build option. Without shield you died, without 2handed you didn't do any damage.


I was thinking about trying out a berserker warrior with 2x 2handed weapon that use [Vengeful Fury] (rage increases armor too) and becoming a lifeleech blender...
However for that to work I think Berzerker Spirit gem give overhead possibility.

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Sadly Mark said in the interview that the whole game needs to be completely overhauled to consider to change how shield works.

The ironic thing is that he's just straight up wrong on this particular. Mark and Jonathan don't well understand how defensive scaling works so they don't understand how to salvage nearly functional systems.

Let me block!