What happened to Engaging Combat? Video Feedback.

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IonSugeRau1#1069 เขียน:

Also the last statement about bosses isn't true either. Why would that be impossible if someone wanted to actually make that happen? I could totally see a game where it would be only about fighting bosses and nothing else and still have grinding gear as an element to it.

That doesn't mean that's what I think PoE2 should do or anything but it's definitely not impossible.

What I do think however is that rares should feel like mini-bosses to fight.

Oh my god....thats the WHOLE POINT. IT IS IMPOSSIBLE WITHIN POE. I'm not talking about other games, or making completely terrible comparisons to games that don't come close to being realistic comparison.


The entire point, my entire point, every single one of my posts...that you have just actually made a statement about for the FIRST TIME right here....is that YES its possible: but only if PoE 2 were to foundationally change the type of game that it is. And it WONT because the game exists. Now. It is already there. We are already playing it. The programming is DONE. The game loop is DONE. The years and years of pre-development on shaping the foundation of the game is DONE. Moving forward, it will NEVER BE about reshaping the entire identity of the game.....it will be new content, adjusting numbers, etc.


The finishing touches that make it the best version of what it already is. Not changing it to be something completely different. That is a different game. Patches do not function to do this. Even EXPANSIONS don't function to do this.

A game where every rare is a boss....is a different kind of game. A game that stops you literally every 3rd pack for an extended fight....is a different kind of game. This kind of play is NOT SUPPORTED by the design of PoE 2. It simply isn't, I'm not sure what else I can say. I don't even think YOU would enjoy PoE 2 if that was the gameplay. Because it STILL wouldn't be Dark Souls. Nor would it be PoE 2. It would be the worst version of both. Much like how Blight is not an example of a GOOD tower defense, nor Sanctum a GOOD example of a rogue-like. They do not WORK correctly within the designed system that they are 'forced' into. No one anywhere is playing PoE and thinking: you know what, I want to play PoE for its tower defense! If that was their desire, they'd play a game designed to be a tower defense game.



You are VERY confused as to what an "open beta" means for programming and development of a video game. The things you want are done at the alpha or even pre-alpha phases.

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IonSugeRau1#1069 เขียน:

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AverBeg7#1689 เขียน:

Ok, but what specifically is doing this? It's just not my experience, I'm not familiar with builds that do that.

Kind of... everything? Since Boss HP was nerfed a lot. In my playthrough with crossbows/mercenary .. the shatter combo was enough to destroy everything.. and further down the lines grenades were ridiculous. As well as Pin being ridiculously overpowered in terms of CC. Minions were also very powerful in my experience. I also tried contagion on a low level toon and saw how every pack of mobs just melt and said "ok" and closed the game.

Yep, 0.3 turned this into the first D4-like.

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cowmoo275#3095 เขียน:

I feel like I need to say this again because I see another 3 pages of this crap:

SCALING enemies: density, hp, attack, whatever.

Doesn't work. It's been tried, its been done. It makes NO difference in "meaningful combat". The only thing accomplished by that is a temporary slowdown in progress. A monster (besides bosses) that now hits a crapton harder and soaks a ton more damage is nothing more than a meatsack. It exists only to "artificially" slow progress and band-aid issues such as power creep. These are NOT solutions to the problem.

Why?

Because the combat remains the same. The game remains the same. The skills remain the same. The goals remain the same.

Of course you can scale enemies. You can keep the power curve going forever like it does in act 1 by just pumping up the enemy & loot numbers. The thing that fucks this up is over the top synergies and auto-triggered skills.

The power of different builds should be a bit more balanced and deterministic. Game breaking synergies and skill recursion needs to be reigned in. Loot should end up being the limiting factor in progression.

To be more precise, I think skills such these should be nerfed into the ground or outright deleted:
- % chance for projectile to split
- % chance to cast multiple projectiles
- cast-on-x,
- frequent instant cooldown resets,
- infinite cc of bosses,
- ...

This needs to be done with utmost care to not ruin build-crafting, which is indeed the magic of PoE. It's a delicate balancing act, but I think GGG can do it.

Yeah, I get it. Your arbitrary decision that an ARPG can never be anything else other then what you think it should be like, either based on status quo or personal preference of said status quo. Which is extremely false and you further use to justify every other point you try to make.

Also, why are you acting like you know anything about game dev? GGG said themselves that the game will change a lot based on feedback. A lot of games have changed a lot of their core designs even after they launched. Some notable examples are Final fantasy and No man's sky.

If game developers actually used your logic, games would've never evolved.

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IonSugeRau1#1069 เขียน:

What I do think however is that rares should feel like mini-bosses to fight.

What's hilarious is D3, a bad game, had the exact game play you're looking for before they copied POE1's zoom zoom game play.

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ShiyoKozuki#4168 เขียน:

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IonSugeRau1#1069 เขียน:

What I do think however is that rares should feel like mini-bosses to fight.

What's hilarious is D3, a bad game, had the exact game play you're looking for before they copied POE1's zoom zoom game play.

Have any video on that? I don't remember D3 having engaging combat.

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cowmoo275#3095 เขียน:

Oh my god....thats the WHOLE POINT. IT IS IMPOSSIBLE WITHIN POE.

Yea, that's why they made another game you know — they saw what they wanted was impossible in PoE… at least they said so in a stream at some point

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cowmoo275#3095 เขียน:

YES its possible: but only if PoE 2 were to foundationally change the type of game that it is. And it WONT because the game exists. Now. It is already there. We are already playing it. The programming is DONE. The game loop is DONE. The years and years of pre-development on shaping the foundation of the game is DONE. Moving forward, it will NEVER BE about reshaping the entire identity of the game.....it will be new content, adjusting numbers, etc.

Might be true, I'll accept that as soon as there's a Jonathan telling me in the 0.4 release stream.

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cowmoo275#3095 เขียน:

The finishing touches that make it the best version of what it already is. Not changing it to be something completely different. That is a different game.

Yes and no. Fundamental changes would be needed. And noone can tell me there isn't a lot of work if they want zooming. Like pretty much all warrior animations look just terrible with high attack speed for example — I also know there would be much less change required, tho.

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cowmoo275#3095 เขียน:

A game where every rare is a boss....is a different kind of game. A game that stops you literally every 3rd pack for an extended fight....is a different kind of game. This kind of play is NOT SUPPORTED by the design of PoE 2. It simply isn't, I'm not sure what else I can say.

Sure, thats why they made a different game to PoE1 — they saw their vision was too different. Maybe current PoE2 is their vision — just not what a lot of people understood from it. Then thats also fine. We are still allowed to say we would like it differently.

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cowmoo275#3095 เขียน:

I don't even think YOU would enjoy PoE 2 if that was the gameplay.

Maybe - can't say cause there is no game like this, if there is please tell me about it and I'll go play it.

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cowmoo275#3095 เขียน:

Because it STILL wouldn't be Dark Souls.

I don't want it to be dark souls. Completely different games. Terrible comparison. Already got the most dark souls like ARPG that's possible imo, called No Rest for the Wicked.

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cowmoo275#3095 เขียน:

Nor would it be PoE 2.

I guess you meant to say “nor would it be PoE1 — reimagined (now features better graphics and terrible performance!)”

PoE2 can have it's own identity you know - it can be but doesn't have to be just another PoE1

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cowmoo275#3095 เขียน:

It would be the worst version of both. Much like how Blight is not an example of a GOOD tower defense, nor Sanctum a GOOD example of a rogue-like. They do not WORK correctly within the designed system that they are 'forced' into.

True - But I also don't think making combat engaging == foring dark souls into PoE.

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cowmoo275#3095 เขียน:

No one anywhere is playing PoE and thinking: you know what, I want to play PoE for its tower defense! If that was their desire, they'd play a game designed to be a tower defense game.

Then let's play PoE2 for its PoE1 like gameplay!

Not like that's “bad” or anything — just not what I and some other players wanted.

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cowmoo275#3095 เขียน:

You are VERY confused as to what an "open beta" means for programming and development of a video game. The things you want are done at the alpha or even pre-alpha phases.

Probably right — especially from a profit POV. You can still do it if you have the money and the passion (and assuming the current PoE2 is NOT their vision). But ultimately that's not for you to decide, but for some higher ups at GGG.

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cowmoo275#3095 เขียน:

Lol come on man.....what a comment. Willingly going for the completely off-the-rails hyperbole like that lol. And again...illustrating not an ounce of digestion of what I wrote. I get the feeling you are doing this on purpose, and I'm a little tired of it. If you want a real conversation, have a real conversation.

No? It's exactly what comes off from your own words.

Are you even playing PoE1 right now?

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IonSugeRau1#1069 เขียน:

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ShiyoKozuki#4168 เขียน:

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IonSugeRau1#1069 เขียน:

What I do think however is that rares should feel like mini-bosses to fight.

What's hilarious is D3, a bad game, had the exact game play you're looking for before they copied POE1's zoom zoom game play.

Have any video on that? I don't remember D3 having engaging combat.

Maybe:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YaDA7GxAtXM

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ShiyoKozuki#4168 เขียน:

Maybe:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YaDA7GxAtXM

Hmm, I mean... it was like 13 years ago.. so it doesn't look all that good to me but hey... at least that boss doesn't bend over and die from a sneeze (it does look very spongy though in terms of HP, a different extreme I'd say)