Playing anything besides LS feels bad.. is it going to be 3 months of LS?

"

TrunktenUK#3407 เขียน:

"

ryuukk33#4998 เขียน:

PoE 2 = joke https://streamable.com/c8ebpm

vs

NRFTW = satisfaction https://streamable.com/b856e8

What potential does the game you highlighted have?

What kind of question is even that? I'm talking about the basics of a melee combat system: Swinging your Weapon

do you want PoE 2 to launch as another screen-wide, mass projectile-chaining, tripple screen-wide corpse-exploding mess before it even hits 1.0?


or do you want it to have a solid melee foundation they can build on every league, expanding with new combos, weapon swaps tech, and genuinely fun & interesting build variety that is not just "which flavor of screen clear do you want"?

Good moment to moment combat, this is what i strive for, this is what i advocate, this is what will give PoE 2 a lengthily 10+y run with incremental, controlled and healthily power creep without scarifying nor compromising its fresh take on a combo driven combat system for an ARPG

"

How can you have a heavily scaling APRG with so many classes and builds and promote something like a melee class swinging heavily and simply while something like a Mage is chaining and blowing up the screen,

PoE 2 already fails to deliver on that promise of variety with its current system, half of the player base is playing Lightning Spear, the other half is playing Spin2Win.... LMAO


A deliberate, animation-driven system (like NRFTW or Elden Ring) doesn't kill build diversity, it creates it

melee could finally stand on its own with combos, spacing, stagger, cancels stuff that makes the act of fighting satisfying, not just the after effect

Right now PoE 2 pretends melee is good on its own, but in practice it's just a clunky mess unless you stack AoEs and explosions,

fixing that would actually make builds feel distinct instead of every archetype chasing the same dopamine: more explosions

If melee had deliberate, satisfying mechanics & combos, cancels, weight, precision, then build diversity would finally mean more than "which flavor of offscreen clear do you want"

How is that build diversity? wich color does the explosion do? cmon..


There are few outliers, of course, but they are outliers for a reason..

"

you want something like a 20ft weapon in your type of game?

YES!








But that's not the point..


Again,

PoE 2 = joke https://streamable.com/c8ebpm
vs
NRFTW = satisfaction https://streamable.com/b856e8


I want the satisfaction to be in the deliberate act of engaging with an enemy with swinging your weapon, not by expecting a screen wide explosion


understand? it's that simple

"

I think your fantasy ideas are limited and/or heavily traditional and that's fine, POE2 is the further evolution of top down arpg play and clearly you're not vibing with it. Just play a less indepth or grounded game or there's a ton of promise in Ashe's of Creation down the line.

Dismissing criticism as “limited fantasy ideas” misses the point

PoE 2 melee isn't actually evolving ARPG combat, it's recycling clunky name lock design and outsourcing satisfaction to explosions, just like PoE 1, just like every other single ARPGs from the past 20 years


Wanting melee to feel distinct, weighty, and rewarding isn't "traditional", it's the opposite: it's asking for actual progress instead of hiding behind excuses or fanboyism

If PoE 2 is supposed to be the "further evolution" of the genre, then having a solid, satisfying melee foundation is exactly what it needs, otherwise every build just funnels into the same AoE spam dopamine loop.. That's not evolution, that's stagnation with better art & VFX



YOUR fantasy ideas are limited, my philosophy of melee would also apply to enemy AI, but you too quick to dismiss argumented ideas, so you can't udnerstand

I want A DUNGEON CRAWLER experience, not a vampire survivor

I want an ARPG not a bullet hell

"

ryuukk33#4998 เขียน:

Path of Exile 1 ended up becoming a bullet hell ARPG

They have repeated the same mistake


PoE 2 is a Vampire Survivor Bullet-Hell ARPG


Everything favors ranged combat, everything is anti melee, even the trials don't want you to be melee


They need to replace their combat team

Hopefully with 0.2 fiasco, Tencent put some of their in house devs in charge of the combat


May 0.3 be melee combat league, may they nerf projectiles/explosions

May monster be given good AI

The fact casters can move while casting but melee are locked in place blows my mind.
Are two different teams designing casters and melee?

"

e_sen#2038 เขียน:

Yes, the balance in the game is completely ridiculous. They destroyed even the average builds that weren’t particularly strong. I was leveling a Pathfinder for a Poisonous Concoction build, thinking I’d go with that — only to realize it’s basically impossible now. Honestly, I couldn’t believe my eyes. The gap between builds is so huge that if you play anything other than the top meta, you feel like a complete idiot.

Frankly, I just can’t understand why they haven’t released a balance patch. I don’t get why they seem to hate the player base so much. If something is broken or there’s a massive gap, you nerf the strong ones a bit and buff the weaker ones slightly. That way, the gap becomes at least somewhat tolerable. Then in the next league, you can tweak things more thoroughly. I really don’t understand why they’ve left this level of imbalance in place for five whole months. As a player, this kind of neglect really hurts.

Reddit and streamers blew up last time they did nerfs mid season in an OPT IN ALPHA, you can thank streamers for ruining another game (they ruined d4 too).

"

ryuukk33#4998 เขียน:

I want the satisfaction to be in the deliberate act of engaging with an enemy with swinging your weapon, not by expecting a screen wide explosion


understand? it's that simple

I don't get it at all. You speak of impactful combat but you are referencing a game with rubber like animations, attacks that never 'connect' and comparing it to edge cases in poe2, a game where a simple spear stab feels impactful, just like a simple dagger stab felt impactful in d2.

Its like you are cherry picking on both sides, to suit your argument that this game you like is better than poe2. And its not even about 'impactful combat' because if it was there are games that excel at it and its not the game you keep linking.

"

You speak of impactful combat but you are referencing a game with rubber like animations

lol

"

poe2, a game where a simple spear stab feels impactful, just like a simple dagger stab felt impactful in d2

lol



I quit melee huntress before reaching endgame in 0.2, many did, they all quit for the same reason, including shroud

Tell me exile, what build did you play in 0.2?

"

Its like you are cherry picking on both sides

nonono, you are not paying attention

Again,

PoE 2 = joke https://streamable.com/c8ebpm
vs
NRFTW = satisfaction https://streamable.com/b856e8

dead simple


for people who still don't understand:



Melee in games like PoE 2 and D4 feel bad because when you attack, your hit won't necessarily "connect", because:

they spawn eager collision shape (cones) in front of the player and it is driven by the skill and they still rely on name locking (wether or not you have selected / highlighted the entity with your cursor

so your weapon's physical attributes have no impact, you may wield a giant ass Two handed Mace, you swing..and.. nothing.. boring and it shows in the animation, there is 0 impact in there, you swing at butterflies https://streamable.com/c8ebpm

The pose animations are boring, lackluster, it's like whoever designed it doesn't understand the fantasy of wielding a giant ass weapon, i mean, you blow up 4 screens at once, yet it looks like swing a twig


In games like NRFTW, they handle combat like in Smash Brothers, like in any fighting games

Collisions spawn during attack's frames, and the collision shape is not a cone, it is based on weapon's physical attributes

All combat events happen on the animation timeline


If your Two Handed Mace is large, you'll have bigger reach, naturally,


The animation conveys that, it feels weighty, it feels powerful, ir feels impactful, all without relying on after effects, the sole animation delivers on the promise of satisfying melee.. sure, the rest of NRFTW is lackluster (game systems) but the combat, the animation, the way it's delivered works, and i'm talking about that, and only that, when I say they nailed it, it shows

It's satisfying because your weapon physically hit enemies, as opposed to an arbitrary shape / rule (name locking)


Now imagine you combine the two.. and that's what NRFTW and Elden Ring already do!


Some spells in ER are crazy


And this is why i advocate for better animations, because this is the key to enable making the act of combat satisfying instead of delegating that to the after effects (usually screen wide explosions)


https://streamable.com/b856e8



And when i see shit like that, i die inside: https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/3822787

GGG doesn't value melee combat, not even for their bosses..

"

ryuukk33#4998 เขียน:

In games like NRFTW, they handle combat like in Smash Brothers, like in any fighting games

well done, you got me

"

AintCare#6513 เขียน:

"

ryuukk33#4998 เขียน:

In games like NRFTW, they handle combat like in Smash Brothers, like in any fighting games

well done, you got me

Try to reverse engineer both PoE, no rest and elden ring, you'll see what i mean

hint: it's all in the animation


there are no shortcuts for satisfying melee combat

"

ryuukk33#4998 เขียน:

"

AintCare#6513 เขียน:

"

ryuukk33#4998 เขียน:

In games like NRFTW, they handle combat like in Smash Brothers, like in any fighting games

well done, you got me

Try to reverse engineer both PoE, no rest and elden ring, you'll see what i mean

hint: it's all in the animation


there are no shortcuts for satisfying melee combat

neither no rest nor elden ring have good combat. its just agility check gameplay just like... well smash bros lol. this makes this conversation very funny to me :)

"

AintCare#6513 เขียน:

neither no rest nor elden ring have good combat. its just agility check gameplay just like... well smash bros lol. this makes this conversation very funny to me :)

C'mon, don't be disingenuous you too


And yet again, good or bad is not the point, it's subjectivity anyways, the point is what contributes to having a satisfying melee combat experience that stand on its own

All i am saying is it begins with the animations and how hits connect, how responsive it is to deliver and time your combo, and how satisfying it is to be able to take advantage of mobs mistakes

Do you like to stand still and spam your attack, or you like to time your combos and swings


It's valid for both the player and the enemies (see the bug report i listed), poor melee combat engine, means poor melee boss figths, they all end up in AoE/Projectile spam to be pretentiously "challenging", as a result


it's an equation and i'm not talking about the balance or the pacing, forget about that, stick to the technical part


I don't like NRFTW, most of the attack patterns / skills they designed are not very good, and the pacing is off, but that's not the point..

I love how they implemented their combat system, it puts an emphasis on animations and frame precise bone driven collision shapes, that's what makes the combat good and satisfying to play imo

And that's what next-gen ARPGs need, take advantage of the A in ARPG


You say "it's just agility check gameplay" as if it was a bad thing, that's the "action" in ARPGs, it's the premise of a melee combat, it's what gives its identity, its weight, its impact and the reason what we want to wield melee weapons, as opposed to casters who wield a twig


Again, forget about all the games i mention, i should really stop because it makes yall drift the discussion too much


DEFAULT MELEE ATTACK is where it begins:

PoE 2 = joke https://streamable.com/c8ebpm
vs
NRFTW = satisfaction https://streamable.com/b856e8


I could go on with skills, but NRFTW skill design is not good, and neither is PoE 2 btw

Again, my complaint is valid for players, but also for enemies: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8htFJbKgb0

"

ryuukk33#4998 เขียน:

"

AintCare#6513 เขียน:

neither no rest nor elden ring have good combat. its just agility check gameplay just like... well smash bros lol. this makes this conversation very funny to me :)

C'mon, don't be disingenuous you too

[/url]

ok, i should rephrase it. The combat is not 'genuine' enough and therefore not satisfying to me. In neither of those games you mentioned i felt 'connect' there are skills in poe2 that do this very well. its not about animation, hell there are games that literally have no animations as you manually control limbs yet they have that satisfying feeling to it. it doesn't have to be about accuracy of collisions neither as some online games with lag also have that feel, and it doesn't have to be a sim like KCD neither. it can be a very crude but still feel good. nor does it have to be agility driven. but that's just my take on it. i also don't think heavy agility focused combat you speak of belongs in iso-hack'n slash, regardless of how 'good' it might feel to you personally. i'm still not sure if you are not pulling my leg after you brought smash bros into this convo lol