Feedback on PoE 2: Fundamental confict in game designs

When GGG did the 1st presentation of the new spear skills, they showed us 'combo gamepla' against a handful of slow zombies - and in that situation it looks fine.

But in the endgame this does not happen - instead you face large hordes of very fast monsters, sometimes combined with wild auras and ground effects. GGG stated that the monsters need to be faster than the player, because otherwise we could just run away.

The next thing is the absence of tankiness. GGG has stated, that they want the game to be always dangerous and they think that tanky chars would become boring.

Consequently screen wide clear is the way to go - not pressing 5 buttons with the correct timing to kill one monster.

So I agree to the OP: there are contradictory ideas.

It seems to me that a lot of the fun of PoE 1 is in breaking it. Building a racecar so fast it doesn't just win, it melts the track. The game has so many tools and variables that there are many ways to do this, and turning entire maps of once-deadly monsters into a laser light show is your reward.

That's fun! PoE 1 should keep that. And I'd love for PoE 2 to double down on its own way. Maps with less density but more loot packed into each monster, so the player can create and close distance, use active blocking when needed, look at a pack and prioritize targets, choose the right tool for the job.

But currently the PoE 2 endgame is so dense and deadly that only two things feel viable: mobility and kill speed. Active blocking won't save you from a giant's foot stomp, and playing for combos will get you rushed down in a breach before the payoff.

Obviously there's huge variance in what people find fun. I guess in my ideal world they release poe1's 3.26 and it's a fast, glorious screen-blasting success, and they simultaneously experiment with seeing just how many tactical duel situations they can put in poe2's 0.3.

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Ludvator#6587 เขียน:

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This fundamental dissonance, I believe, is the root cause of many of the current design concerns and much of the negative feedback from a segment of the player base.

Interesting point of view.
This feeling for me is the result of devs who want to make a new game, with a new pace, but using the same structure of PoE1.

I totally understand your point of view but in my opinion, its more like if we have 2 games : the campaign and then, the end game. Its not an issue to play a slow pace during campaign, against bosses, small pack of mobs, rare mobs,...
For me, in the start of end game with maps, the choice is to have a higher and speeder pace for the game and yeah you are right, we can see that through some speed clear task with delirium and breach for ex. But its more like secondary content that you can do. The main content is like during campaign : going through maps to clear mobs and bosses.

You said stun mechanic, freeze or even electrocute is a part of this dissonance for you, but I just see it as a reward for players. A way to be able to do their damage, combos,... without being prevent to do it. More like a "you escaped skills of boss the last 3 min, now you can it him peacefully". And for me, its a good thing for the pace of this game, like a moment when you can just rest after avoid being hit.

Btw I have the feeling this point of view appeared with the new class of huntress and so, parry mechanic and combo (even if combos already exist in PoE2 before 0.2).
So personnaly, I dont see a dissonance here, more like some secondary contents you can do if you want to (playing parry or combo, doing fast end game content,...)
And about the combo playstyle or parry, its more like a new playstyle, again for people who want to play like this. Work is still needed specially for parry, to be able to parry almost all hit from bosses, but its a nice and refreshing proposition of playstyle by GGG imo.

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Schranzfranz#4329 เขียน:

The problem is that when one decides to make a game, You first have to have a roadmap / businessplan , allocate some money and when these things are somewhat settled you go into concept phase, before everything else is done.


POE2 never has left the concept phase. They ares till actively working on what PoE2 should be . And are strill trying out concepts that should have been paved 6 years ago , at the start of development.


An alpha is there to fix bugs and reiterate on those concepts if they stand the test. A beta, what we have now is to just fix bugs /stability, but the core gameplay should be set in stone - and later expandable with new content.


We are lightyears away from a concept set in stone that appeals to PoE1 players and newcomers alike. Let alone a satisfying endgame.


THis is scary.

I don't agree.

It can be part of a creative process, not to have everything set from the get go, but develop things in the process. I think this might be less likely in gamedevelopment but it is common within other established artforms. It is a risky process but it can be very rewarding. However if I can think of any dev, pulling that off, it is GGG, because that is how they handled PoE1 for a long time now. How many seasons were about trying new mechanics and seeing if it works.

Unlike in earlier days of game development lines between developing and playing a game have been blurred due to EA and live service models. And we need them, when it come to sustainibility.

However I think players are still not used to this. Because the process is not written in stone and often enough experimental and therefor uncertain, while even EA reviews are written like it is a finished game.

So yes it is scary, because it is risky. But that's how innovation works. Everybody wants to be 2nd first. Coming 1st is a differnt game.

Well, according to GGG's words, it is expected that in the endgame players should feel themselves like Gods. Well, if we're following that logic, then it is expected that our playstyle may change as well, especially compared to the earlier progression stages. Is there anything wrong with the fact that we have to use combos actively in the early game and swap to\build around screenclearing skills later? There is actually nothing wrong with it and it makes perfect sense. This is basically how one becomes good in something.
Honestly, this is not a real issue. But endless restrictions on every single skill is a real problem indeed.

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Hubbfrosch#0297 เขียน:

When GGG did the 1st presentation of the new spear skills, they showed us 'combo gamepla' against a handful of slow zombies - and in that situation it looks fine.

But in the endgame this does not happen

I'm not sure where you draw the line, but my build is fundamentally combo-based and it's currently happening in what I consider the endgame.

T16 Map w/ volatile plant Rituals: https://youtu.be/ZAEifj7gIEs

T16 Mirror, Xesht +3, KotM +3: https://youtu.be/oB43otI35YI

I'm still making tweaks between practically every map trying different combinations of gems and interactions, swapping different curses into Blasphemy, switching between Artillery & Ripwire, seeing if I can make Daze & Dazzle work out. Sure it's super slow compared to the "meta" but it's definitely a combo build and I'm having a hell of a lot more fun figuring it out than I would be if I was just running around speed clearing maps of phat lewtz.

That video looks pretty dreadful. If a single mob is on the screen you move by mashing spacebar? Also, 2 skills plus maybe a curse...is that combo? I get the sense they(devs) were not saying this is what they want us to play like. You should have a full skill bar and have a bunch of back and forth with an opponent. What I see here is just screenkilling with extra steps.

I haven't played No Rest for the Wicked but from what I've seen they have the more meaningful combat. Because they have you against one enemy at a time mostly.

I don't see how they can make combat slow and meaningful in a game designed from the ground up as a copy/paste of PoE1. Large packs, moving at fast speeds, etc. Seems to me the plan started out as a graphical upgrade with WASD for PoE1 and the amount of work they put into it made them think they could make more money as a separate game. Or Chris announced he was retiring and the vision took over. The problem is the vision wasn't there from the start of the build.

Keep the engine, the wasd. Scrap most of the rest of the game. Map sizes, monster quantity, etc. Remove the endgame system entirely, it is definitely just a placeholder and a real endgame should be designed with slow/meaningful combat in mind. All this will take a ton of work and the game will be ready in like 3-5 years, but it'll be drastically different from the first game and it'll also be good. Right now this version of the game won't be done for quite some time and hopes for a good result are seemingly low.

I personally don't see a single improvement from pre-0.2.0 to now. Performance, loot, skills, gameplay, mechanics, endgame...fun...it's all worse somehow.

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Interesting point of view.
This feeling for me is the result of devs who want to make a new game, with a new pace, but using the same structure of PoE1.

This is essentially the same thing I've felt and have been saying since early on in .1; PoE 2 is very much a mix of probably too many ideas from a long development process and other games just haphazardly grafted onto the skeleton of PoE 1. I believe the core idea behind PoE 2 can work but they really needed to reevaluate a number of philosophies and just start from the ground up.

Overall a good point, I think devs really need to start reducing timers and focus more on reactive gameplay.

Reward people for surviving and not getting hit, not brainlessly deleting everything cuz they abused x broken build

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Schranzfranz#4329 เขียน:

An alpha is there to fix bugs and reiterate on those concepts if they stand the test. A beta, what we have now is to just fix bugs /stability

Yeah, dude. Early Access is absolutely not in any sense of the word a Beta. Early Access isn't even an Alpha. Early Access is essentially an expanded pre-Alpha phase designed to allow for collaborative design with the player community.

I don't know where you got the idea that Early Access = Beta but that's not what it is. Why would they have come up with an entirely new name for it if that were the case? We already had Beta dude...