How to fix defences - partial dodge, ES in front, HP from armor

1) Nerf ES so, that all damage is taken from ES first before calculating other defences (dodge, armor, evasion). To balance this, adjust the damage to a suitable level with a fixed multiplier (one point of HP is not the same as one point of ES).

2)Make each armor point grant HP. (self explanatory)

3)Introduce partial dodge, a damage reduction component for evasion for all damage (including slams). Calculated by evasion * current hp percentage (higher the hp%, the more damage reduction) -> the purpose of this is to prevent one shots.

And GGG, while you eventually go through this proposal in your internal meeting and decide to implement it, give me a call, you have my CV ;)

Can anyone think of why the above would not work?

This MIGHT be working, but armour and evasion might be "fixed" by many other ways. For example, change a formula of damage reduction. Which wont let you survive lemental damage... Str might give more HP per point, so armour related characters would be tougher. While stackers might get too much benefits? Or, let armour reduce an elemental damage awell, with a different formula. As evasion might have a chance for random % of damage reduction. Or glancing hit mechanic.

MAIN problem is GGG and their will to fix it. Or keep it unchanged for another half of the year. Or even more...

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1) Nerf ES so, that all damage is taken from ES first before calculating other defences (dodge, armor, evasion). To balance this, adjust the damage to a suitable level with a fixed multiplier (one point of HP is not the same as one point of ES).

That's not needed. ES is strong because the talent tree offer too much of it and life none. Just adjust the values and add life nodes on the tree and this one becomes a non problem. No need to alter completely the system.

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2)Make each armor point grant HP. (self explanatory)

Too strong. Instead just making armor talents give raw hp, it would be easier to balance. Or even better a rework of armor calculation.

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3)Introduce partial dodge, a damage reduction component for evasion for all damage (including slams). Calculated by evasion * current hp percentage (higher the hp%, the more damage reduction) -> the purpose of this is to prevent one shots.

Evasion is fine, mostly in a good place. Now maybe introducing some spell/attack suppression would be cool, but not as a baseline for evasion.

What's needed is a better talent tree, some spirit skills that interact with life and armor, and a better armor damage reduction calculation (reminder that armor in PoE2 is baseline more than twice worse than PoE1). Also there is barely any physical damage conversion or reduction in PoE2, like no Endurance Charge, no Fortify, no Determination, no Stance... which are the reason why armor is viable in the first place. We need at least one easy way to get it besides Smith of Kitava and cloak of flames.

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Legioona#1076 เขียน:

1) Nerf ES so, that all damage is taken from ES first before calculating other defences (dodge, armor, evasion). To balance this, adjust the damage to a suitable level with a fixed multiplier (one point of HP is not the same as one point of ES).

A'ka kill the ES entirely. Bad idea.
ES issue is not it's mechanic, but it's scaling. If we cap at 5-6k it's fine as you need to work on its recharge to make it worth. And you still die to one-shots like everybody else.

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Legioona#1076 เขียน:

2)Make each armor point grant HP. (self explanatory)

That's incredible bad idea. 50k+ Hp possible with that. Self explanatory bad.

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Legioona#1076 เขียน:

3)Introduce partial dodge, a damage reduction component for evasion for all damage (including slams). Calculated by evasion * current hp percentage (higher the hp%, the more damage reduction) -> the purpose of this is to prevent one shots.

This is somewhat interesting, but maybe not in place of evasion, but as some sort of mod to it, like Acrobatics for example.


You need to work on your ideas a lot more. These are too vague and lack wider perspective on correlations with peripheral systems. Armour giving hp is the example.

Armour/Life do need some love, but form of passive nodes expansion seems more reasonable. Or a rework of how Armour is working, etc.

Ok this needs a big discussion and carefull implementation couse one more failure after patch 0.3.0 will be the end of game.

I suggest the followings:

1). 1 Strength = 7 Life points. Becouse Warrior builds aren't chicken invaders. Don't worry it want ruining balance. In fact it is a mediocre buff. Adding 2k Life isn't a big deal to 1500-2000 life builds.

2). Armour should not only mitigate physical damage but also a small amount of elemental. 10-20% should be fine to keep balance stable.

3). 1 Armour = 0,2 Life.

4). Evasion should have a different mechanism. More innovative. Hits should have a percentage of pseudo-mitigation. What i mean is when a hit doesn't evaded then it should be considered as:

a. Critical gear part hit(100% of damage applied). Percentage of chance 50%.
b. Semi gear part hit (50% of damage applied). Percentage of chance 40%.
c. Not significant gear part hit(20% of damage applied). Percentage of chance 10%.


5). Let ES be just as it is. NO MORE PUNISHMENTS please

Also Parry and Block rules should be more innovative. For example. Holding a shield in my back ( secondary weapon slot ) gives a very small amount of damage mitigation as block. About 5% should be fine.

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Legioona#1076 เขียน:

Can anyone think of why the above would not work?

Doesn't make sense to completely strip all ES of mitigation and make it take a fixed amount of damage. That would be worse for balance than the current iteration because there would be literally 0 reason to build any other defense if ES is your main EHP. Legit every build gets perma stunned without block or evasion too, the gameplay would feel terrible.

They already ignore chaos damage with CI, what you are suggesting is that they ignore everything else or do not function.

What is needed is life buffs, not more ES nerfs. The idea of not having life nodes in the tree because the game shouldn't 1 shot is a neat one, but currently everyone running life not stracking strength is getting one shot so something is clearly broken with the implementation of the idea.

Life simply needs another scalar if there is none on the tree, perhaps like %life on gear prefixes. If they want to make it not necessary, well then they're going to have to stop trying to kill every 3k life build in one hit with a single t16 damage mod and take a thorough pass over every offender multiple times. It will take longer to actually achieve monster balance that does not one shot life than the EA will last and continue unto the game's extinction probably

This is a pretty disgusting idea, but one way to achieve "balance" would be to give the monsters mainly % damage.

You could give them a small base and make the rest % based on the players max EHP then it should be relatively easy to statistically achieve "impossible to one-shot life unfairly with no crit" lets call it.

The idea is kinda boring though and takes away from getting tankier in different ways, and also opens up the game to low health cheesing if not done carefully. It would kinda make the min-max EHP go from max numbers to some weird breakpoint which is strange in itself. But I guess it is a more creative solution than just "make number go up", and there are probably ways to mitigate some of these issues, maybe some don't even exist with near perfect damage calculations.

If you can create a breakpoint where monsters with damage mods using dangerous attacks are almost 1shotting the expected EHP, and still kill anything under it with the added base, it would work as a late game umbrella. I guess then you could make recovery amounts or speed % based on max ES/ Life to compensate for the higher damage to higher EHP, to create an offset so getting bigger numbers would still effectively increase the character's max hit.

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bobsponge123#5749 เขียน:

3). 1 Armour = 0,2 Life.

It still would give like 10k life alone. so almost 20k life builds possible with this only.
Can you guys get your math straight before posting?
Armor cannot give any life by itself. You could make a mod that'd give some life out of Armour, but it would need a heavy drawback on it to make it balanced.

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bobsponge123#5749 เขียน:

1). 1 Strength = 7 Life points. Becouse Warrior builds aren't chicken invaders. Don't worry it want ruining balance. In fact it is a mediocre buff. Adding 2k Life isn't a big deal to 1500-2000 life builds.

This also insanely huge buff proposition, that cannot happen.
You just here alone buffed flat life gains from it's most common source by 250%.
How can you justify it with

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bobsponge123#5749 เขียน:

Becouse Warrior builds aren't chicken invaders. Don't worry it want ruining balance. In fact it is a mediocre buff. Adding 2k Life isn't a big deal to 1500-2000 life builds.

Above alone clearly speaks for your lack of knowledge and seriousness in this regard.

If you want to increase Life by such absolutely insane amounts, you'd need to propose a counter to it in form of nerfs to ex. Warrior asc trees that give Life% and small nodes value.

I'm sorry, i lost interest in your comment at this point.


To give out some actually valid numbers:
Life stacking above 4k is hard and above 5k is insanely expensive at the moment.
Move it up so it is 5k and 6k whilst at the same time cap ES at around 6-7k and we're good.
Easiest way for Life would be to just up the str to life ratio from 2 per str, to 3 or 3.5 per str.
As for the ES I am not as sure on how to achieve that, but I'd say lower passive values a bit on chosen notables and maybe nerf Heroic Tragedy a bit.

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Legioona#1076 เขียน:

Can anyone think of why the above would not work?

a) this would make armour significantly better than evasion and possibly better than ES

b) it would make evasion significantly worse as right now it's usually used in combination with es. Partial dodge is good but not as good as bigger life (/es) pool

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Evergrey#7535 เขียน:

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bobsponge123#5749 เขียน:

3). 1 Armour = 0,2 Life.

It still would give like 10k life alone. so almost 20k life builds possible with this only.
Can you guys get your math straight before posting?
Armor cannot give any life by itself. You could make a mod that'd give some life out of Armour, but it would need a heavy drawback on it to make it balanced.

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bobsponge123#5749 เขียน:

1). 1 Strength = 7 Life points. Becouse Warrior builds aren't chicken invaders. Don't worry it want ruining balance. In fact it is a mediocre buff. Adding 2k Life isn't a big deal to 1500-2000 life builds.

This also insanely huge buff proposition, that cannot happen.
You just here alone buffed flat life gains from it's most common source by 250%.
How can you justify it with

"

bobsponge123#5749 เขียน:

Becouse Warrior builds aren't chicken invaders. Don't worry it want ruining balance. In fact it is a mediocre buff. Adding 2k Life isn't a big deal to 1500-2000 life builds.

Above alone clearly speaks for your lack of knowledge and seriousness in this regard.

If you want to increase Life by such absolutely insane amounts, you'd need to propose a counter to it in form of nerfs to ex. Warrior asc trees that give Life% and small nodes value.

I'm sorry, i lost interest in your comment at this point.


To give out some actually valid numbers:
Life stacking above 4k is hard and above 5k is insanely expensive at the moment.
Move it up so it is 5k and 6k whilst at the same time cap ES at around 6-7k and we're good.
Easiest way for Life would be to just up the str to life ratio from 2 per str, to 3 or 3.5 per str.
As for the ES I am not as sure on how to achieve that, but I'd say lower passive values a bit on chosen notables and maybe nerf Heroic Tragedy a bit.

Hahahaha you make me lough bro.... Hahahaha.

Seriously now, if you find a build with 10k Life i will allow you to punch me in face to wake me up becouse surely i will be dreaming....

And even if you find , this is clearly a broken or an extremely rare build that sacrifize everything on investing to have this result. These builds should be nerfed and before Devs bring such an ideas on implementation stage.

+1 from isn't ruining balance.