What happened to Engaging Combat? Video Feedback.

By the way screenclutter and zoomy gameplay is primary reason my friends refuse to play poe1 while i suggest them to try.
They are waiting for poe2 release, but if it will appear the same as poe1 they will still go away.
And I don't think that very unique situation.

I'm so excited to see a thread like this, because I agree so much. I was really looking forward to a game where skill mattered, but it seems that they have very little interest in rewarding it. Rewards are meted out in this game based on clear speed and gear stats, which, combined with the extreme monster density and speed, make fast builds not a fun option, but a requirement.

For 0.3.0, I decided to play a permafrost/fragmentation combo tactician. I enjoyed it immensely. The campaign was fun, though I sometimes struggled with boss damage, and I enjoyed patching that damage up in various ways. Even the endgame was somewhat engaging up until I hit t15 and the necessity to juice maps. Having a slow-ish cone shaped attack that also depends on frequent reloads and shooting at least twice to explode mobs became very challenging when I constantly have a 180 degree wall (or 360 in a breach) of mobs coming at me, running across the screen in a fraction of a second, while dodging explosions and projectiles. This is using a combo that they specifically designed, speccing into a part of the tree that belongs to my class, and trying my best to make do with the armour/ev defenses that they don't seem to want to support in any way (can we get a Ghost Dance please? Oh ffs, I'll just spec Iron Reflexes). I see builds online, of which there are many, that barely require the player to be conscious.

You might suggest to play what you like and ignore the rest, but these builds have such significant effects on the economy, that they outright define it. When currency and gear are dependent on clear speed, that is what will define the endgame.

I would love to see a game where monster density is much lower and maps are more methodical and actually require skill to play. This is what I found to be fun, not mindless, single-button screen-garbage followed by typing some stats into a website to improve your character. I can understand the idea of a power fantasy, but that should be an *expansion* of a skillset, not a reduction or a simplification. Your skill repertoire as a character should expand as you level up, but we don't really see that happening.

The worst part is that it doesn't really feel like they have interest in pursuing this design. Each patch has been riddled with the same problem, though solutions have been obvious since the beginning. Monster density alone is an easy fix. Their "fix" for parrying is enough to make me question their resolve. Who legitimately thought that the problem with parry was that it didn't block all damage types? You want parry? Reduce monster density. It won't instantly fix the problem, but wow, it's by far the biggest problem with it.

The problem isn't that they're failing, it's that they aren't even trying.

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cowmoo275#3095 เขียน:

Only half true. The other half is that there are a TON of players, basically every single streamer.....who simply want to maximize their numbers no matter WHAT the challenge is.

After all, a lot of us have been playing for a decade or longer. There ARE no challenges left in PoE 1. Yet we still play, collect gear, create builds, etc. Why?

Some have an end goal of beating a particular content, but most veterans simply want to see how powerful they can make a build, and are perfectly happy blinking bosses out of existence WEEKS or even months before they stop playing their build.

Streamers don't make half of the player base. And streamers have a vested interest to milk the games they play for as long as they can. We all know that much. Hardcore, in general, is literally popular because of streamers and the high entertainment it can provide for their audiences.

"there are no challenges left in PoE1" Sure there were, all the endgame bosses weren't there from the start, what are you talking about? In fact.. I can guarantee you that the leagues that saw the most surge in players and most player engagement over time were the leagues/patches when they introduced new endgame bosses/content.

The overwhelming majority of players play a game to beat the endgame content and then they're done with it. (Which, again, explains the huge player drop off PoE1 has compared to most other games out there) Another part of players, do like to play it again for replayability purposes, usually with different builds (that's normal and happens in any games too)... And then there's you guys that see it as a gambling mechanism instead of a video game. And that's where the whole disconnect happens.

For you guys, It's all about that endgame loot addiction without any real purpose beyond that. You just want to see the shiniest things dropping without having any real need for them to progress further... which is why you couldn't care less about challenge or meaningful combat.... and it is in fact a deterrent for you.

How else can we call this .. Pathological reward chasing?... RNG-induced compulsion loop?

It's not a coincidence that Darth Microtransactions got hooked on PoE1... he was a gacha game main Content creator before this.

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cowmoo275#3095 เขียน:

The reason why I am saying its impossible is because, at its core and no matter what GGG has SAID their intention was.....PoE 2 is the same game as PoE 1. Exactly the same. There is no difference. If you can highlight a specific difference other than "things are temporarily slower"....please let me know.

There are quite a lot of changes that aren't just numerical. If you're trying to say that PoE2 is essentially the exact same as Ruthless... not only is it wrong but it's also very disingenuous.

Here's a few example of skills that make no sense for PoE1: Rolling Slam, Perfect Strike, Supercharged Slam, Hammer of the Gods, Escape Shot, Gathering Storm, Ember Fusillade.. etc. Things have started to go downwards the moment PoE1 community and especially Content Creators started to put pressure on them to make it the same game. In almost EVERY interview there was one CC pushing for "1-button this" "disabled people that" "power fantasy this" and all sorts of the same. The whole reason they even added the less then half-baked endgame was because of the PoE1 community.

If what you're saying were true as to "it's impossible to make this work with the PoE1 core/base" .. I WOULDN'T HAVE liked Act 1 in 0.1 AT ALL. I would've lost all hope then and there and moved on. Want to know why? Back when I was playing PoE1 I've tried Ruthless... but it was TRASH...I didn't like it ONE BIT as opposed to PoE2 Act 1... it doesn't make combat any more engaging or meaningful. If it just tweaks some numbers it's simply SLOWER and nothing else. I did NOT get the same feeling in PoE2 initially.

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cowmoo275#3095 เขียน:

Regarding whether neutering your character power results in engaging combat....eh, I would say it doesn't. LONGER combat in general doesn't equal engaging combat. Sitting there casting a skill 100x to kill a white mob doesn't mean its "engaging". And ruthless mode is "unpopular" by comparison to the number of players in trade and SSF. Ruthless is a tiny community of players.

EXACTLY what I've been saying.

You keep saying that meaningful change cannot be achieved with just numbers, and I agree, you also agree that an overhaul to a lot of systems is required... and I agree again... it's the whole point I've been trying to make with my video... but then you insist that this overhaul is impossible because there's too much work to be done. That's not for you to decide... but for them if they still wish to pursue their original goals. So far it seems like they've given in to PoE'1 and streamers demand rather then still pursue their goals... but we'll see how things shape up further.

The top liked comment on Dreamcore's video is not one that advocates for Zoom Zoom, but rather one that was hopeful on seeing the engaging combat GGG was talking about initially.

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cowmoo275#3095 เขียน:

I mean that certainly doesn't mean its the ONLY thing every PoE player likes. But if they LIKE playing PoE......then they also like blowing up screens of enemies and moving real fast. Because that's the game they are CHOOSING to play.

You manage to contradict yourself in your own sentences here. You say the right thing in the first sentence... which is precisely my case. I didn't play PoE1 because of screen clearing nonsense.. I've played it because of the build crafting/skill tree possibilities.... everything beyond that was pure trash for me. It's why I've dropped it so freaking fast despite really liking that first part I've mentioned.

Again...It's why MOST people drop it so fast and why stats show one of the steepest player drop offs in PoE as opposed to other games.

https://youtu.be/u_dTYDjbr70?si=_AIaZfMkwyhFPDjr&t=1930

Here I talk about why the fidelity and combat pacing in ARPG needs to be sacrificed in the late game of ARPG for a few minutes.

Simply because people push their characters harder and exponentially they start doing more damage in more area, while at the same time the number of monster increases, there cannot be a fine balance. Fidelity and combat pacing is sacrificed so that you can play the game. Every encounter cannot be finely tuned with the design being so many monsters doing separate things with increasingly more of them. At a point it breaks. There is no way to "out-skill" scenarios in the late game, and that's fine. An ARPG in the top-end is played by out-statting everything and blowing it up. You push your character to be powerful and then you expect yourself to be powerful. It is a power fantasy at the end of the day. The monsters will end up filling your screen, you will end up filling your screen.

You get a more intentionally paced experience in the campaign, and then in the late game you get to become powerful, clear screens, and find insane items. That is a great spot for the game to be in.

Slowing down the pace of the combat and making every engagement at every point of the game mechanically intricate is simply not possible. Keep the pacing in the campaign, and treat the end game's issues separately.

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AverBeg7#1689 เขียน:

https://youtu.be/u_dTYDjbr70?si=_AIaZfMkwyhFPDjr&t=1930

Here I talk about why the fidelity and combat pacing in ARPG needs to be sacrificed in the late game of ARPG for a few minutes.

Simply because people push their characters harder and exponentially they start doing more damage in more area, while at the same time the number of monster increases, there cannot be a fine balance. Fidelity and combat pacing is sacrificed so that you can play the game. Every encounter cannot be finely tuned with the design being so many monsters doing separate things with increasingly more of them. At a point it breaks. There is no way to "out-skill" scenarios in the late game, and that's fine. An ARPG in the top-end is played by out-statting everything and blowing it up. You push your character to be powerful and then you expect yourself to be powerful. It is a power fantasy at the end of the day. The monsters will end up filling your screen, you will end up filling your screen.

You get a more intentionally paced experience in the campaign, and then in the late game you get to become powerful, clear screens, and find insane items. That is a great spot for the game to be in.

Slowing down the pace of the combat and making every engagement at every point of the game mechanically intricate is simply not possible. Keep the pacing in the campaign, and treat the end game's issues separately.

I don't see any point in making a game that starts out hard and mechanical just to get this screen-clear mess at some point. Most of the people who are unhappy with the campaign are probably the same that want the mindless zooming. Most of the people who like the campaign would want engaging combat in the endgame.
Whats the point of learning boss mechanics and improving in the first 8h of a game, and then starting to trivialize the game more and more. Shouldn't you be able to feel strong if you can beat pinnacle bosses? Do you need to oneshot them to feel strong?
Maybe at some point you need to "explode" packs of white mobs to feel the progression. Maybe some rares are getting less of a challenge, since you got more options to deal with them. I still think it is possible to make.

Yea, it wouldnt feel exactly like PoE1 then. Because it just isn't.

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KäsePizza#3007 เขียน:

I don't see any point in making a game that starts out hard and mechanical just to get this screen-clear mess at some point.

It is just naturally what happens as you progress through something like an ARPG.

If you enjoy the campaign pacing, that's great. You don't have to push your character into "the mess". The campaign is probably better than maps. The best part of the game is in the campaign right after you get your build going.

That is just not a thing that can last forever, and that is an inherent fact with the design of ARPGs. If you want to experience something like the campaign/ early maps, then the solution is to go again.

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KäsePizza#3007 เขียน:

Yea, it wouldnt feel exactly like PoE1 then. Because it just isn't.

Who ever said PoE2 was meant to be slow in the endgame? I don't feel like PoE2 was ever slow in the end game.

It's just natural for ARPGs to get more ridiculous the higher you go.

Imagine it's a rogue-like, and endgame is "Endless" mode. The Endless mode exists because there are people who want to exist in the game with very powerful characters just killing things and seeing what they get next or how ridiculously powerful they can get. You are essentially choosing to go into an Endless mode that you don't enjoy. The option is there for the people who do.

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AverBeg7#1689 เขียน:

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KäsePizza#3007 เขียน:

I don't see any point in making a game that starts out hard and mechanical just to get this screen-clear mess at some point.

It is just naturally what happens as you progress through something like an ARPG.

If you enjoy the campaign pacing, that's great. You don't have to push your character into "the mess". The campaign is probably better than maps. The best part of the game is in the campaign right after you get your build going.

That is just not a thing that can last forever, and that is an inherent fact with the design of ARPGs. If you want to experience something like the campaign/ early maps, then the solution is to go again.

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KäsePizza#3007 เขียน:

Yea, it wouldnt feel exactly like PoE1 then. Because it just isn't.

Who ever said PoE2 was meant to be slow in the endgame? I don't feel like PoE2 was ever slow in the end game.

It's just natural for ARPGs to get more ridiculous the higher you go.

Imagine it's a rogue-like, and endgame is "Endless" mode. The Endless mode exists because there are people who want to exist in the game with very powerful characters just killing things and seeing what they get next or how ridiculously powerful they can get. You are essentially choosing to go into an Endless mode that you don't enjoy. The option is there for the people who do.

Just because something is like this in a lot of ARPG's — like PoE1 or D4 — doesn't mean it has to be like this for every new game. Just because it does work, doesn't mean it can't work differently. If you go like that, it would mean no innovation in games at all — cause the genre doesn't allow making something different from how it is. It's just ridicolus to say it's impossible and ARPGs have to be this or that - all you need are the basics. Some loot, character improvement and choice. Also, I don't see the action in zooming mindlessly through screens - the action that is the A in ARPG...

As for your comparison with endless modes — for some games, that ofc is true. We were told to get meaningful combat, and we were told to get speed in the endgame. The thing is — both of these don't work together, and GGG got to decide for one. As of now it seems like they are going with speed, making PoE1 again — if that's what they want then fine. But don't just say this is what every ARPG has to be, just because it what you want it to be.

I would have wanted a slower, more methodical game - maybe in your view that's not an ARPG and maybe it shouldn't be called PoE2 then. For me it still would be.

The combat is more engaging for almost all players. Keep in mind that most players don't have some ridiculous build. That's like 1-2% of players, if that. Stop playing metas and play the actual game. I've never once played a meta build since POE 1 closed beta. I avoid them at all costs, because I like to enjoy playing and have a challenge.

I'm having a blast this season since we can reuse support gems.

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Nikuksis#6962 เขียน:

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cowmoo275#3095 เขียน:

You'd be....wrong. No nicer way to say that. If they DIDN'T actively like it, why in the world would they choose to continue playing THIS game, and not the thousands of other games available to them?

lol.

I mean that certainly doesn't mean its the ONLY thing every PoE player likes. But if they LIKE playing PoE......then they also like blowing up screens of enemies and moving real fast. Because that's the game they are CHOOSING to play. No one is forcing them to play PoE and ONLY PoE. What an odd thought.

And when they do finally get the things they want for their character through the superfast and expedient farming, do you think they just.....stop? What actually do you envision players "liking" about PoE if it isn't the game?

There is literally no alternative in genre with such deep gameplay.
Im in poe1 from breach league, and back then it was waaay slower and less zoomy, the power creep in poe is drastical.

And I am still playing every league, just because theres no other game offer so much quality content.
But i really hate powercreep, exploding screens and lightspeed movement.

I was hyped so much about poe2 being poe but slow and engaging and meaningful gameplay and with vision clarity.

That is why im extremely upset that already in 0.3 the game turning to the poe1 because of poe1 playerbase and streamers feedback.

In POE1 we had Cast on Crit with a 10ms cooldown back in 2014. You would insta delete screens of mobs and bosses back then. Skills also shotgunned (fireball, artic blast, etc.). We also had cyclone CoC discharge where you never stopped moving through maps. POE1 was never a slow game. Breach league came at the end of 2016.

Just have 10x less enemies, that are 10x stronger, so that you have to CC them, dodge their attacks etc. Make their drop rates appropriately higher to keep the sense of progression.

Add roadblocks in endgame. Don't make progression too smooth. It's fun to farm for a bit to overcome a big boss and move to the next "tier" where you can again get better loot for the next roadblock.

Aside from restoring the gameplay mechanics that make this game good, this also gives purpose to single target damage VS AoE damage VS cc-focused builds etc. Greatly increasing the variety of ways you can approach the endgame while giving your build clear strengths and weaknesses.

At the same time I'm in favor of preventing recursive spells that fill the sceen with shit. Like fireballs spawning more fireballs spawning more fireballs. It's fun fireworks for an hour, but gets boring really fast. It's for sure not what ARPG is for normies like me.

Can you not imagine anything beyond the mistakes of the past?