Feedback on PoE 2: Fundamental confict in game designs

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rifraf-_-#9478 เขียน:

The entire game was built on the campaign experience which was years of development, while the endgame started development 6 months to a year pre-EA access.

An yet the devs aren't changing endgame in any significant way. Instead they are just adding more random events and doubling down. This suggest that mapping is here to stay. They added more nodes to the Atlas. For crafting they added more RNG based systems (Recombinator). They also haven't reduced the number of mobs or the map size. None of these things address the conflict.

IMO POE 2 is just going to be a harder, more clunky, more tiresome to execute version of POE 1. Now this is subjective, so if people find the extra button presses enjoyable (or other aspect of the game enjoyable enough to tolerate combos) then the game will be successful. If not, then I suspect the game will move more towards POE1 (which it already seems to be doing).

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darrenrob82#3531 เขียน:

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rifraf-_-#9478 เขียน:

The entire game was built on the campaign experience which was years of development, while the endgame started development 6 months to a year pre-EA access.

An yet the devs aren't changing endgame in any significant way. Instead they are just adding more random events and doubling down. This suggest that mapping is here to stay. They added more nodes to the Atlas. For crafting they added more RNG based systems (Recombinator). They also haven't reduced the number of mobs or the map size. None of these things address the conflict.

IMO POE 2 is just going to be a harder, more clunky, more tiresome to execute version of POE 1. Now this is subjective, so if people find the extra button presses enjoyable (or other aspect of the game enjoyable enough to tolerate combos) then the game will be successful. If not, then I suspect the game will move more towards POE1 (which it already seems to be doing).

It takes time to both add features to the endgame, let alone balance it. It's no secret when the game launched the endgame was in a pretty miserable state. They are building it as we speak. Balancing it will take time.

I have no idea where you see the game already moving towards PoE1. That's wishful thinking on your part more than anything.

OP is very narrow-minded person. " Path of Exile and the ARPG genre at large."
false - just play no rest for the wicked. Which i guess POE should follow more to have more of a souls like in it's arpg formula.

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rifraf-_-#9478 เขียน:

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darrenrob82#3531 เขียน:

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rifraf-_-#9478 เขียน:

The entire game was built on the campaign experience which was years of development, while the endgame started development 6 months to a year pre-EA access.

An yet the devs aren't changing endgame in any significant way. Instead they are just adding more random events and doubling down. This suggest that mapping is here to stay. They added more nodes to the Atlas. For crafting they added more RNG based systems (Recombinator). They also haven't reduced the number of mobs or the map size. None of these things address the conflict.

IMO POE 2 is just going to be a harder, more clunky, more tiresome to execute version of POE 1. Now this is subjective, so if people find the extra button presses enjoyable (or other aspect of the game enjoyable enough to tolerate combos) then the game will be successful. If not, then I suspect the game will move more towards POE1 (which it already seems to be doing).

It takes time to both add features to the endgame, let alone balance it. It's no secret when the game launched the endgame was in a pretty miserable state. They are building it as we speak. Balancing it will take time.

I have no idea where you see the game already moving towards PoE1. That's wishful thinking on your part more than anything.

The endgame is still in a very miserable state. Just by having breach and delirium the game is already forcing it to be a poe1. They're not mechanics compatible with the idea of a slower gameplay, they're mechanics that force you to one shot everything on screen as fast as possible. Ritual isn't that different either given that defense is so bad in a claustrophobic space where things keep trying to hit you, it's much easier to just one shot everything and be done with it before things can one shot you

It feels like almost everything in the endgame was just thrown there without much thought, or at the very least nothing in the endgame conforms with the idea that was passed on the interviews for poe2

I completely agree.
It would be fine if PoE2 was designed as a soul-like, completely different from PoE1, but in reality it's a forced mix of soul-like and hack-and-slash, which I think is a big problem.
These completely opposite design philosophies are like oil and water and can never be mixed, so unless GGG makes PoE2 a completely soul-like or a hack-and-slash game just like PoE1, I feel like PoE2 will never get any more attention.

Personally, I think it would be good to move towards a Souls-like version.
If we drastically reduce the number of monsters inhabiting the map and have them drop multiple pieces of equipment and currency when defeated, I think the fun of crafting would still remain.

We were playing two different beta versions of PoE1 I think.

The largest difference between the two currently is Enemy Density. Not pacing. That is what's at odds with manual block/parry, combos, etc. The pace of the game determines almost nothing.

It's also not truly about clear speed either. GGG did that by only having bosses at the end of maps and more recently by having literal meters you have to fill before fighting bosses.

ARPGs need to leave these bad concepts of AoE Layering and twitch mechanics behind or the genre is going to die. Turn based RPGs are making a big come back yet they share a common ancestor.

I don't know what the hell end-game is in PoE2 but it needs to be entirely scrapped.
Put the RPG back in ARPG. Loot and builds are just part of the concept.

there are hundreds of design conflicts in the game

they want us to utilize weapon swaps, but the jewel mods are too specific to work on two different builds, and it's too hard to get weapon swap speed for most builds, and skill slots are not enough in most cases

there's no life on tree, but there's crap load of energy shield on the tree, making it almost impossible to play pure life builds without high strength

lightning damage is superior to other damage types because of shock and electrocute, and fire in particular is just garbage unless we're talking about an ignite build

conversion is difficult to get and it's ineffective. blueflame bracers is a cool item, but why should I lose an entire equipment slot just to convert fire damage to cold? is cold damage really that better than fire as a type to justify the opportunity cost at hand? if so, why is this even the case to begin with?

the passive tree is god awful, especially for non-crit attack builds. going crit makes much more sense in endgame, but it's not even possible for something like a grenadier deadeye unless you have a god tier crossbow, because the base crit is terrible on all crossbows. but the game doesn't have anything to offer for noncrit attack builds either. why?

and one more thing about the passive tree, most notables are way too specific and situational. for example, looking at armour/evasion notables,

- leather bound gauntlets forces me to use an armour base
- defiance only works when on low lfie
- insulated treads doesnt even make any sense, because it's almost impossible to have high armour/evasion on boots since one of the prefixes has to be movement speed and the other one has to be life

I just want some non-situational stats on my character, how hard is it? I'm not even gonna talk about stupid downsides like the ones on power shots and overwhelm. downsides should only be on unique items, not on the notables we're FORCED to take

and yet another complaint I have about the passive tree is that some stats are too easy to obtain, while others are not. for example, it's much easier to get lightning penetration than fire penetration for a crossbow build, although there are lots of fire based skills on crossbows. why? was this tree made by a part-time working intern or something? I could literally make a better one in 1 day

why am I being heavily punished for getting more gem levels through better gear, which is already difficult to get? if I have to invest 10 passive points and 3 prefixes to deal with the mana costs, the damage I gain from the extra levels isn't even worth it at that point

one of the biggest selling points of the game is that we can do basically anything on any class. jewel sockets were the primary tool to enable this idea, because it was possible to make up for the points lost by travelling around, and they're gone. why is the game forcing dev-sanctioned builds upon us? just call it diablo 5 then

the whole tower ordeal is a massive mess I'm not even going to dive in it, just remove towers

I could list 500 more things that make this game bad, but it's clear that ggg forgot how to make a good game

I haven't read all comments, but would quite agree with the topic.
Game just want to tackle to conflicting routes.
There is no way in responsive mindful combat with endgame putting you to an existing challenges.
Whatever classes skills weapons already or will be added in game, it not about that.
That all boils down what challenges we are facing, and those are ultimately ported from POE1 as for now. So there is nothing better than POE1 way to address them.
Unfortunately, it feels like the only difference in a long run poe2 will have compared to poe1 is how campaign is played. Endgame feels that same mindless grindy "classical arpg".

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Exactly this.

The entire game was built on the campaign experience which was years of development, while the endgame started development 6 months to a year pre-EA access.

Take a wild guess which of those is not balanced and should not be taken remotely seriously.

Not so. Early campaign just doesn't let you use everything the game has to offer. This is why people have this illusion that "the game is slow" and was "designed like that initially". No. If it was the case we would see very different support gems and skills later on. Different mechanics. But almost all skills are designed for zoomzoom POE1-like gameplay: massive AOEs everywhere (uncluding melee skills), chainings, forkings, explosions, piercings, autocasts, etc.

However, as it seems, some few skills indeed were disigned with "slow gameplay" perspective in mind. And ofc no one uses them, because the game isn't meant to be slow at its very core (just see the number of monsters, their speed, overall item drop rates).

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iHiems#0168 เขียน:

The endgame is still in a very miserable state. Just by having breach and delirium the game is already forcing it to be a poe1. They're not mechanics compatible with the idea of a slower gameplay, they're mechanics that force you to one shot everything on screen as fast as possible. Ritual isn't that different either given that defense is so bad in a claustrophobic space where things keep trying to hit you, it's much easier to just one shot everything and be done with it before things can one shot you

It feels like almost everything in the endgame was just thrown there without much thought, or at the very least nothing in the endgame conforms with the idea that was passed on the interviews for poe2

That's fair criticism and good feedback. The endgame does feel like it was thrown together without much thought. Just because it worked in the original it doesn't mean it can work for the sequel. GGG should've known better.

Idk what's the way forward for the endgame in PoE2 but that's not it.