Remove -10% from game

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Evergrey#7535 เขียน:

Well, I don't know why they cannot occupy same server, but you seem genuinely convincing, so no need to elaborate.

My vote goes for XP-Loss-stays then.

Sure man, following that 'logic' I don't know why hardcore characters cannot occupy the same server either.

Maybe it has something to do with certain optional tags adding/removing difficulty to/from the game and hence having to have a split economy.

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Evergrey#7535 เขียน:

Keep going bois. It's almost like feedback topic in here.
Noone have responded to my comment with substantive assessment (page 2), yet you kept arguing pointlessly.

It's more like a social experiment in here.

Sorry, I felt your assessment should have made everyone realize that there is no middle ground this way that would appease both parties, but knew some people are going to ignore it because the clash of opposite worldviews is going to ignite a fight response. :D

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Evergrey#7535 เขียน:

Keep going bois. It's almost like feedback topic in here.
Noone have responded to my comment with substantive assessment (page 2), yet you kept arguing pointlessly.

It's more like a social experiment in here.

Your idea seems even less realistic to me than them ever removing XP loss. Getting a free stash tab or cosmetic every season upon reaching level 100, for opting into XP loss - when level 100 in hardcore doesn't even get anything - is delusional, with all due respect.

The whole idea about level 100 seems to be the prestige around it, so I like another player's suggestion that was made - that players be given (an option to check out of XP loss when creating a character) which then excludes them from leaderboards.

I'm always confused by this topic.

If you suck at the game, the game shouldn't just let you progress without improving along some axis. Just as a general concept in games.

PoE2 made a massive improvement here over PoE1 by making bosses respawn with full HP if you die.

In both games if you can't kill a boss within your portals, you just lost the boss.

If you can't clear the Trials (or Lab in 1), you restart them and lose your progress.

Even the concept of getting less waystone portals with difficulty is built in to add difficulty for the player to overcome, and set them back a bit of they fail.

Map/Waystone sustain fills the same role as well. If you can't consistently clear maps of your current tier you're not going to be grind enough replacements and be forced down in map tiers.

Losing Exp on death is the same thing as the boss restarting when you die in my opinion. It means you need to improve to progress further. Either you gear sucks, your gems suck, your skill sucks, or you're trying content too difficult for your current abilities. (If you're like me that's probably happening because you're not reading those waystones... 😅 I'll never learn.)

I guess my big question is, are all these cases equally bad, or is there something particularly bad about exp loss that you hate?

I do agree is not as easy as I'd like to understand where you need to improve, but I don't think that means the game should just not demonstrate when you've failed.

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SpankyKong#9805 เขียน:

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Evergrey#7535 เขียน:

Keep going bois. It's almost like feedback topic in here.
Noone have responded to my comment with substantive assessment (page 2), yet you kept arguing pointlessly.

It's more like a social experiment in here.

Your idea seems even less realistic to me than them ever removing XP loss. Getting a free stash tab or cosmetic every season upon reaching level 100, for opting into XP loss - when level 100 in hardcore doesn't even get anything - is delusional, with all due respect.

The whole idea about level 100 seems to be the prestige around it, so I like another player's suggestion that was made - that players be given (an option to check out of XP loss when creating a character) which then excludes them from leaderboards.

That's fine.
I tried.
Now it's just pointless discussion continued. Don't bother yourselves with me.

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Sure man, following that 'logic' I don't know why hardcore characters cannot occupy the same server either.

Maybe it has something to do with certain optional tags adding/removing difficulty to/from the game and hence having to have a split economy.

I wasn't sarcastic, you didn't have to elaborate.

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KaosuRyoko#1633 เขียน:

I'm always confused by this topic.

If you suck at the game, the game shouldn't just let you progress without improving along some axis. Just as a general concept in games.

"A general concept in games" and yet not one out of all GOTY nominees ever - has had the sisyphean XP philosophy that POE imposes upon their players. The only XP loss out of any nominees, is in souls games which (1) let you go back and pick up your XP, and (2) have combat so finely tuned, unlike the chaotic RNG nature of POE, that it allows true skill expression via completing the game without ever leveling up.

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KaosuRyoko#1633 เขียน:

PoE2 made a massive improvement here over PoE1 by making bosses respawn with full HP if you die.

In both games if you can't kill a boss within your portals, you just lost the boss.

If you can't clear the Trials (or Lab in 1), you restart them and lose your progress.

Even the concept of getting less waystone portals with difficulty is built in to add difficulty for the player to overcome, and set them back a bit of they fail.

Map/Waystone sustain fills the same role as well. If you can't consistently clear maps of your current tier you're not going to be grind enough replacements and be forced down in map tiers.

Losing Exp on death is the same thing as the boss restarting when you die in my opinion. It means you need to improve to progress further. Either you gear sucks, your gems suck, your skill sucks, or you're trying content too difficult for your current abilities. (If you're like me that's probably happening because you're not reading those waystones... 😅 I'll never learn.)

I guess my big question is, are all these cases equally bad, or is there something particularly bad about exp loss that you hate?

You're right that there are several layers to punishment, so we're actually getting triple or quadruple tapped with every death. Here's the difference though, in my opinion:

Trial reset or boss health resetting (assuming you don't lose boss access entirely from a map node) by itself seems like a fair way to ensure an actual build check. You will never beat a trial or boss with a truly inadequate build.

Losing waystones seems fair because it's almost like a token you spend in order to generate a map - similar to spending quarters to attempt an arcade crane game.

XP loss feels different because XP earned is typically the bare minimum exchange for the cost of time invested... and the way it's currently designed, you can earn XP beating ten or more maps, then lose it all on the eleventh map.

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KaosuRyoko#1633 เขียน:

I do agree is not as easy as I'd like to understand where you need to improve, but I don't think that means the game should just not demonstrate when you've failed.

As alluded to before - there are several other layers of punishment even without XP loss. Removing XP loss does not, in any way, make failure ambiguous.

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Celd#2630 เขียน:

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CovidPatientZero#4772 เขียน:

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Celd#2630 เขียน:

It would be braindead operation to me, if every character is promised to reach level 100, with no impact of choices for the achievements.

Explain how anyone is promised to reach 100 when it would take several hundred hours to reach it without a penalty?

Not changing the topic to the speculative amount of hours needed to reach level 100, but if there was no exp penalty on death, all I would need would be to grind away, and eventually I'll reach level 100. No need to think about defenses or consequences, because the game would not require me to think about balanced builds. It'll replace every feeling of accomplishment for each painful level with one accomplishment: grinded the hours for level 100. That's a hollow feeling man, really hollow. :D

Not a subject Change, want you to substantiate your claim that's based purely on assumptions that are at odds with how most people play games. People don't like to die over and over, especially when map bonuses are lost. Most people aren't going to ignore defense if they keep dying, people don't like backtracking and wasting time. You are assuming that players will continuously bang their heads against the wall because an exp penalty doesn't exist to make them even more frustrated. Makes no sense

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SpankyKong#9805 เขียน:

XP loss feels different because XP earned is typically the bare minimum exchange for the cost of time invested...

I think this is where we just fundamentally disagree and almost certainly will never see eye to eye.

Perhaps it's because I played a ton of grindy games in the past with even larger penalties for death. I remember early Maplestory where a single death could cost ten hours of experience gain at high levels. I still loved that game and I remember fondly how much your level actually meant and said about your time investment but also skill to not die. Each level took progressively more commitment. I like that level 100 isn't a guarantee in PoE, and I kind of like that is harder to get on 2 currently.

I've come to think in these conversations maybe they should just adjust and make level 100 take the same exp as 95, and then add an extra layer of progression above it. Maybe then you could do 0 experience loss, but even harsher loss on death in the post 100 progression system. Functionally that's still just the same to me, but it seems it would feel less bad to a lot of people for some reason.

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KaosuRyoko#1633 เขียน:

I think this is where we just fundamentally disagree and almost certainly will never see eye to eye.

Perhaps it's because I played a ton of grindy games in the past with even larger penalties for death. I remember early Maplestory where a single death could cost ten hours of experience gain at high levels. I still loved that game and I remember fondly how much your level actually meant and said about your time investment but also skill to not die. Each level took progressively more commitment. I like that level 100 isn't a guarantee in PoE, and I kind of like that is harder to get on 2 currently.

Not everyone has the luxury of being able to have extended game sessions every single day. For some, one death completely invalidates several days worth of time spent. But your sensibility for time investment, commitment, and difficulty - seems to me to be already catered to in hardcore mode. I don't advocate that this option be taken away.

We do disagree, but it feels like the root disagreement is whether there should even be an option for player with different sensibilities.

PoE 1 and 2 are designed with an exp penalty in mind. The average player doesn't realize that said penalty indirectly affects how other systems are balanced as a whole. Sure, GGG could remove the penalty and allow you to blast without consequences, but would you be willing to sacrifice player power, loot and design space for future features / mechanics in return?

Everyone asking for an removal is shortsighted and doesn't think about implied consequences. And for that reason the penalty is here to stay - just like it did in PoE 1.