Remove -10% from game

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SpankyKong#9805 เขียน:

Not everyone has the luxury of being able to have extended game sessions every single day. For some, one death completely invalidates several days worth of time spent. But your sensibility for time investment, commitment, and difficulty - seems to me to be already catered to in hardcore mode. I don't advocate that this option be taken away.

We do disagree, but it feels like the root disagreement is whether there should even be an option for player with different sensibilities.

Hardcore is fun sometimes, I can see the appeal. But I do prefer the balance of the softcore punishments for death myself.

Your conclusion here sounds accurate.

I do not believe every game needs to, or even could if it wanted to, cater to every possible type of gamer. I have no fundamental issue with PoE being a game primarily for grinders that can no life the game any more than I have an issue with Elden Ring being a difficult game designed for masochists or Stardew Valley being a relaxed game for more casual gamers. There are plenty of different games in different categories that cater to different types of gamers. PoE is the niche I've found that I love, so I don't want it to change away from that. Too much attempting to cater to absolutely everyone is the big driver of enshittification.

If part of your argument against exp loss is that you have limited play time, would you also argue that Mirrors and other stretch goals that average play time players are never going to see shouldn't exist?

Overall, exp loss is a very small part of the things I love about PoE, and while I enjoy the debate against it, I wouldn't honestly bat an eye if they removed it tomorrow either.

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Celestriad#0304 เขียน:

PoE 1 and 2 are designed with an exp penalty in mind. The average player doesn't realize that said penalty indirectly affects how other systems are balanced as a whole. Sure, GGG could remove the penalty and allow you to blast without consequences, but would you be willing to sacrifice player power, loot and design space for future features / mechanics in return?

Everyone asking for an removal is shortsighted and doesn't think about implied consequences. And for that reason the penalty is here to stay - just like it did in PoE 1.

It's been established countless times that "without consequence" is not an honest assessment of what it would be like without XP loss.

If it stays - ok. I'm not playing the game at this point but they can design it how they want. I'm just making it known what keeps a player like me away from the game.

But if we're pointing to POE 1 - also take note this likely plays some role in (1) the mass and rapid player dropoff of players that we see every season, and (2) the fact that POE 2 player population is now somewhat in line with the population of POE 1 despite the promising launch with more than double POE 1's all time high player count.

They had a huge opportunity that just seems stubbornly squandered to me.

I would actually think that exp loss increases retention a bit if it really affects it at all. Some people may bounce off because of it, others would quit faster when reaching max level.

Either way, player count dropping after a month into a league isn't a calamity at all, it's exactly how the game was designed to work. If the game was absolutely perfect that's the kind of player count peaks and valleys they'd want to see. The majority of their income happens at the beginning of the league they've started before, so they want the cycling hype of players leaving and thermal coming back. It's not like WoW where they're paying a subscription so you want max subscribers every single day.

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SpankyKong#9805 เขียน:

If it stays - ok. I'm not playing the game at this point but they can design it how they want.

They will. The game just isn't for you then. It's not that deep.

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SpankyKong#9805 เขียน:

also take note this likely plays some role in (1) the mass and rapid player dropoff of players that we see every season

Wrong. PoE 1 is a seasonal arpg first and foremost. People get hyped or drawn in by new content, play a bit and then move onto the next game. You have more than a decade worth of public data to draw from. I assure you the exp penalty is not the reason. People who drop off early don't reach levels / content where the penalty becomes an actual consideration.

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SpankyKong#9805 เขียน:

(2) the fact that POE 2 player population is now somewhat in line with the population of POE 1 despite the promising launch with more than double POE 1's all time high player count.

PoE 2 is still in early access and far from complete. It also comes with cross play and China doesn't have its own realm yet. Direct comparisons to PoE 1 are in no way, shape or form indicative of anything other than the overlap in genre and the fact that it's PoE 1's successor.

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KaosuRyoko#1633 เขียน:

If part of your argument against exp loss is that you have limited play time, would you also argue that Mirrors and other stretch goals that average play time players are never going to see shouldn't exist?

I just take issue with a design that puts players in a Sisyphean loop. It's demoralizing for a huge chunk of players to feel like all their time spent was for nothing after one death. I'm not advocating for removing high end chase items.

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SpankyKong#9805 เขียน:

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KaosuRyoko#1633 เขียน:

If part of your argument against exp loss is that you have limited play time, would you also argue that Mirrors and other stretch goals that average play time players are never going to see shouldn't exist?

I just take issue with a design that puts players in a Sisyphean loop. It's demoralizing for a huge chunk of players to feel like all their time spent was for nothing after one death. I'm not advocating for removing high end chase items.

My position was always.. that the loss coudl never surpass the Xp you gained in the map in question x 2.

Aren't high end chase items just the same loop? Just a fundamental view thing I suppose. They'll do what they want but I wouldn't hold my breath.

-I'm tired of my time being wasted
"Then get good"
-but i dont know what killed me or how i died
"use an omen"
-it didnt work. its still active in my bag
"You just want a free level 100"



And now we have this 25D chess argument......

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KaosuRyoko#1633 เขียน:

I would actually think that exp loss increases retention a bit if it really affects it at all. Some people may bounce off because of it, others would quit faster when reaching max level.

Either way, player count dropping after a month into a league isn't a calamity at all, it's exactly how the game was designed to work. If the game was absolutely perfect that's the kind of player count peaks and valleys they'd want to see. The majority of their income happens at the beginning of the league they've started before, so they want the cycling hype of players leaving and thermal coming back. It's not like WoW where they're paying a subscription so you want max subscribers every single day.

"XP loss actually keeps players and the game is so good, nobody wants to play it".
If the game, or any game, is really good, people will play it regardless of any season/league thing.

I have 4 friends that I"ve played numerous games with over the years that won't make it past the beginning of act 2 normal because they know it's in the game at later levels.

Defending XP loss is like letting your car run out of gas and die because you saw your ex walk into that station once.
Years ago.
Before you met them.

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Celestriad#0304 เขียน:

Nah. PoE 1 survived the death penalty. PoE 2 will survive it too. You're not getting free level 100's - get better and die less.

Next fanatic..... is 2025 and this XP penalty has no sense todays.
People want relax not flustrate.
Second: it has not at all business sense this feature to keep on.

Ah yes that's why the best game ever made is still being played 24/7. Lmao. I have no idea what you're talking about. Remember how amazing Elden Ring is? And how many people play it now? They've given talks about how they explicitly want peaks and valleys in the concurrent players. It's directly from them not some hyperbolic 25D chess logic.