GGG which lane are you on: Mindless Blasting or "Visceral" combat

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KäsePizza#3007 เขียน:

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Herbeh#6842 เขียน:

If that video you linked is meant to be relevant to the conversation, I'd like some of whatever you're smoking. Also who cares about David Brevik? People also tried to zoom zoom in D2, and still do to this day. Speed is and always will be king when grinding is a goal

Can you maybe wrap your head around the fact that speed is king in your brain and not in everyone's? And you can't tell me what I have to want — if you do think you are the "correct" one here and everybody else is just "wrong", my condolences. Please take a step away from this thread — you are not helping anyone here by just stating they are wrong and insulting them.

He is actually right about speed being king, and that is the problem that people are wanting curbed. It will truly come down to what the PoE 2 devs actually want their game to end up as.

Do they want the zoom zoom style of PoE 1 or a more slower speed?

I prefer the slower option. It does not have to be slow like act 1 slow. Most people just want the main encounters to actually be an encounter rather than a bunch of red health bars on there screen.

I want to clear a pack of weak white mobs in 3-4 strikes instead of tapping once or holding down the button and the entire screen blows up. And to have to slightly consider my position when I do so.

Rare monsters should actually be something that you approach with a degree of caution and slightly assess where you are fighting them and the terrain that is around you, at least until you have great gear. Once you are geared then you can take a bit more of a free approach but it should not be over in 1-2 strikes.

A waystone should take 3-5 minutes to complete not 60-90 seconds. The drop rates and everything else that goes along with this can be easily adjusted to account for this.

Pinnacle boss fights should last for a couple minutes as well. I am not asking for 20 minute fights but maybe also 3-5 minutes for an uber fight where I actually have to worry about its attacks.

I would even like to see Super Uber Encounters that are so rediculous that it is not expect to beat them, just buff stuff for those who like the challenge. They don't need to drop anything. They could even make them free to challenge just for the hell of it.

One of the biggest issues currently is the scaling, especially in boss fights you go from boss fights taking 3-5 minutes to taking 10-20 seconds due to the insane scaling.

The other big issue is how we interact with monsters, I do not know a solution here. White monsters are either too fast or they are too agressive, yet changing any of this even slightly will just make them pointless. The current state with them being fast/agressive means we need to take a kill or be killed approach, if they slow them down then they just become target practice.

The question is where is the balance, what can be done to make the basic white monsters engaging without either making them too powerfull or making them too weak.

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Cyriac_Darakus#1022 เขียน:

I want to clear a pack of weak white mobs in 3-4 strikes instead of tapping once or holding down the button and the entire screen blows up. And to have to slightly consider my position when I do so.

But there are builds that exist right now today that work exactly like that and apparently you're not playing them. So, like, is that what you want or not? Because GGG is watching you and if every time a build can 1-click clear maps in under a minute and erase pinnacle bosses in 2-3 abilities then you jump on board and play that build then they're going to assume that's what you want.

If you want more moderate builds with slower gameplay that take awhile to clear stuff, then start playing those builds. They exist.

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Rare monsters should actually be something that you approach with a degree of caution...

Yup. 100% without a doubt and I have to (especially in Abyssal Depths).

I took my son along for a few maps yesterday and after his 3rd death he said he thought I "made my maps too hard." I streamed myself running one solo and talked him through my strategy which absolutely includes treating rares with some respect and not just rushing into them headlong. I helped him swap out some passives and supports to be a little tankier and less focused on rushing every pack.

Today we ran a half dozen similar maps and 2-manned his T1 and T2 Simulacrum runs and he didn't die once.

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A waystone should take 3-5 minutes to complete not 60-90 seconds.

5 minutes would be a fast clear time for me.

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Pinnacle boss fights should last for a couple minutes as well.

King T3 took me just over a couple minuites. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYXjYK44mY8

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The question is where is the balance, what can be done to make the basic white monsters engaging without either making them too powerfull or making them too weak.

So, that is certainly a question but not one you need to answer. That's GGG's job. But if you guys keep playing the OP meta speed clearing build every League then that's where GGG is going to focus because that's what you're telling them you want.

If you want more strategic, slow, methodical gameplay then start playing that way now.

Agreed with Kerchunk on that. If you're not having fun with a build make a fun build. You're not feeding your family with divines so what's the rush?

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Cult_of_Resine#3258 เขียน:

Agreed with Kerchunk on that. If you're not having fun with a build make a fun build. You're not feeding your family with divines so what's the rush?

I don't think "play slow if you want a slow game" is a good argument at all. You're just punishing the player who cares about diversity while keeping the meta the same, cutting your own leg while everyone else is running in front of you with multiple legs lol

The mechanics that only exist because of a person running with 5 legs will still exist for the person who cut their leg and runs with only 1. They put a pitfall in the road because the person with 5 legs was too fast, but it affects the person with 1 leg even more, and that pitfall didn't have to exist in the first place if the person with 5 legs didn't exist in the first place

"Just play for fun bro"

Sounds reasonable at first, but if slower builds get punished with worse loot, slower progression, and even higher death risk even if you go full tank, then "just be casual bro" isn’t actually a choice, it’s telling someone to accept being worse at the game in every measurable way you can imagine. Idk about you but I'm a quite competitive person myself, even if I don't plan to tryhard

People don't just follow meta out of nowhere, they follow based on incentives the game itself gives. If the whole game gives you incentives to go faster, then that's what any reasonably competitive person would do to compete. Doesn't mean they like what the game is proposing

"Just handicap yourself and play slow while others clap you bro" is just a big cope

I think they've given up on "meaningful combat". If they cared that much about "meaningful combat" they'd have made movement speed a much more premium / luxury stat and gutted Tailwind. Instead they make this half-hearted concession of adding Sprint with the consequence that you can randomly die and lose 10% xp / Omen of Amelioration if you just happen to be human and press the dodge roll button a touch too long. Not to mention some of the rare mods on monsters only make sense to have if you expect players to fly through the game like Deadeye / some generic HH build.

Either way, I'm basically just expecting this to become poe1 by release beyond the few decent structural changes they made to base items being useful to farm

People who don't play builds they have fun with stop playing the game. The people who do, continue playing the game.

The people who stopped then come to the forums and complain about how they were forced to play certain builds, got bored, so they stopped playing the game. And they blame the game.

This is an issue with perceived efficiency guilt over how you approach the game.

Don't optimize it to the point where you optimize the fun right out of it, otherwise you are creating your own problem.

You won't get "outcompete" by these alleged "other" optimal players because like you do when you play un-fun builds, they stop playing.

ARPGs do not have to be about speed, but that is precisely what GGG is promoting and building the environment for. Jonathan explained that a player who maximizes efficiency to the absolute extreme should get 1000x than what an average player would get. Part of that 1000x would be based on speed. E.g., if the average player takes 20 minutes to clear a map, a top-end player should be able to clear a map in 2 minutes. This very obviously leads toward mindless blasting.

But at the same time, the early campaign pacing and other comments by Jonathan leads toward "visceral" combat.

This is why people are so confused. It's like GGG wants to have its cake and eat it too. Much like how Blizzard built D4 for both casual/hardcore audiences, and look how that ended up.

If I try to play a slow and combo focused build that needs 3-4 hits against whites, I will just get overrun by monsters and die every single map. The game is NOT made to be played for builds like this. Bosses maybe, you can learn their mechanics and have an actual fight. Then again — getting a fight out of the game just because you throw away every 2nd good item you find is not enjoyable gameplay.

The funny thing about all these posts is that the people making them invariably play the easiest gamemode (softcore trade), typically using copy/pasted guide builds, and cannot survive in gamemodes that actually require defensive planning and more deliberate gameplay (HCSSF).

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Poiuytr133#2949 เขียน:

The funny thing about all these posts is that the people making them invariably play the easiest gamemode (softcore trade), typically using copy/pasted guide builds, and cannot survive in gamemodes that actually require defensive planning and more deliberate gameplay (HCSSF).

True. Defensive planning, deliberate end slow like EDC and lightning arrow

Want to know what's the best defense in this game?

It's called blasting the whole screen before the mobs can see you. Preferably blasting 2 screens away

Take a guess what the deliberate and slow gameplay is on HCSSF