GGG which lane are you on: Mindless Blasting or "Visceral" combat

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SoujiroSeta#2390 เขียน:

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Herbeh#6842 เขียน:

APRGs as a genre cannot have slow "visceral" combat, it's antithetical to the entire genre. Blasting at the speed of sound is the entire point and there's nothing that can possibly be done to change that when the whole point is a nearly endless progression of your character.

Nothing, even low drop rates, feels as antithetical to character progression as slow ass combat and huge pointless zones

Herbeh you've been here as long as I have. You remember when poe 1 was a much slower game.

When you used to do Fellshrine runs with an mf culler.

When Vaal Oversoul was released and was so rippy.

When a pack of blue monsters could kill you if you weren't careful.

Heck a ton of Arps from the past like Titan Quest were slow. You weren't zerged with 1000s monsters the moment you spawn into a zone and take 1 step forward. It was small packs at a time. If you ran ahead without clearing you risked being overwhelmed which is on the player. Playing slow and moving from 1 pack to the next was how the games were made. You actually got to interact with the monsters and see their abilities. Now it's just throw a bunch of monsters on screen and let the players blast away.

It's more a current trend of Arpgs all turning to this same formula. Arpgs can, and had been, slower paced and methodical for years.

But even in those older ARPGs, speed was the name of the game. In TQ the dream mastery became the best as soon as the expansion dropped because it could use that 1 wave ability and clear a screen immediately. When PoE was in beta the complaints were all about how it was too slow compared to contemporaries, same thing with Grim Dawn (which is much faster these days as well).

Having methodical gameplay is okay, but the goal in every ARPG from the beginning has been to gravitate towards faster, snappier mechanics and abilities. We don't need to run around like we loaded into green hill, but killing hordes quickly is the fun of a loot based game, as evidenced by the amount of complaints that people can't do it

I can see that there is a part of the ARPG genre that's exactly what you described. I also see that there is a fan base for this kind of games.

But saying everyone wants every ARPG to be like this is just you pushing this perspective onto everyone. PoE2 wanted to be its own game to be different, thats why they started it as standalone game.

If the current version is their vision, and they still want players blasting through the endgame — so be it. I don't see the meaningful combat nor the reason for a new game in this case. But it's their game, so fine.

But I don't need you telling me what I want from this game — that's for me to decide — nor what GGG's vision is — that's up to them.

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Herbeh#6842 เขียน:

But even in those older ARPGs, speed was the name of the game. In TQ the dream mastery became the best as soon as the expansion dropped because it could use that 1 wave ability and clear a screen immediately. When PoE was in beta the complaints were all about how it was too slow compared to contemporaries, same thing with Grim Dawn (which is much faster these days as well).

Having methodical gameplay is okay, but the goal in every ARPG from the beginning has been to gravitate towards faster, snappier mechanics and abilities. We don't need to run around like we loaded into green hill, but killing hordes quickly is the fun of a loot based game, as evidenced by the amount of complaints that people can't do it

People are always looking for the fastest farming build in any arpg cause faster farming = more drops. The fastest farming build doesn't have to be fullscreen 1 click aoe spamfest. You can have a build that is considered fast in the context of 1 game, but will be considered "snails pace" in another. The poe 2 equivalent of fast can be slow in poe 1 terms. My point being "fast mapping" should not automatically equate to "spam 1 button while running as fast at the speed of light".

The complaints about Poe 1 being slow back then were from those who wanted it to go fast. There were a lot of people who didn't want the "zoom zoom" direction and voiced it on the forums as the game got faster. GGG listened to the speedsters, and here we are now. The poe 1 audience is zoomers, so anything that isn't 1 button spamfest will be lashed at. That doesn't mean people who want a slower game don't exist. The slower audience stopped playing poe 1 years ago, and those seeking slower gameplay would not pick up poe 1 to begin with. So the only voices you'll mostly hear from are zoomers.

How fast and snappy the mechanics are depends on the game. When the monsters only zerg at the speed of light with on death effects, burst dmg, and degens/slows, then the players need to be snappy at the speed of light to respond.

A game's playstyle is a product of the choices made by the devs. As such, they can make the opposite choices and lead it in another direction.

Poe 1 didn't become what it is by accident. League after league after league they kept increasing player power, speed, and aoe.

Take player speed for example:

- We went from quicksilver flask
- to onslaught flask
- to the addition of more cast/attack speeds nodes on the tree
- to support gems with "More atk/cast" speed letting you leapslam/flame dash at ridiculous speed
- to the addition of Action speed. Which is a multiplier on all ur speed.

Current Arpgs don't get to this mindless blasting state cause they are "destined" to. They get there cause the devs WILLINGLY make design choices that take it in that direction.

When we say "slower" we don't mean taking 1hr to kill white mobs. We mean we get to see the monster abilities, and dance with them. This can take a couple seconds for white mobs to a bit longer for blues/rare. Rather than killing them the frame they spawn on our screen.

If you enjoy blasting, fine. Nothing wrong with that. Some of us don't enjoy this "click 1 button run as fast as possible" gameplay. One button spam is not the destined faith of all arpgs. Devs willingly make choices that push the game in one direction or the other. Just like how GGG took poe 1 into hyperspeed, they can slow poe 2 down.

For reference, here is how POE1 originally was before they turned it into a slot machine simulator:
https://youtu.be/lZUkTMj319w

This is the type of game play I expected from POE2. However, I was clearly lied to.

slow it down and make party play viable, make tanks useful, add taunt mechanics, etc etc etc.

better yet just fly me to NZ and let me get my hands on this crap.

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ShiyoKozuki#4168 เขียน:

For reference, here is how POE1 originally was before they turned it into a slot machine simulator:
https://youtu.be/lZUkTMj319w

This is the type of game play I expected from POE2. However, I was clearly lied to.

remember when builds of the week looked like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_EcQDOUN9Y

mind you this was considered 'almost too good' and 'abusable'

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AintCare#6513 เขียน:

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ShiyoKozuki#4168 เขียน:

For reference, here is how POE1 originally was before they turned it into a slot machine simulator:
https://youtu.be/lZUkTMj319w

This is the type of game play I expected from POE2. However, I was clearly lied to.

remember when builds of the week looked like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_EcQDOUN9Y

mind you this was considered 'almost too good' and 'abusable'

Yeah...now we get this as builds of the work from the developers themselves:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3sGaFlMf66U

I think we've all been lied to with marketing, and they never actually wanted to give us a slow game.

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ShiyoKozuki#4168 เขียน:

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AintCare#6513 เขียน:

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ShiyoKozuki#4168 เขียน:

For reference, here is how POE1 originally was before they turned it into a slot machine simulator:
https://youtu.be/lZUkTMj319w

This is the type of game play I expected from POE2. However, I was clearly lied to.

remember when builds of the week looked like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_EcQDOUN9Y

mind you this was considered 'almost too good' and 'abusable'

Yeah...now we get this as builds of the work from the developers themselves:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3sGaFlMf66U

I think we've all been lied to with marketing, and they never actually wanted to give us a slow game.

I don't want to say 'they never wanted' since there was a lot of effort placed into certain aspects of poe2 that go beyond just marketing, but something is very sus right now

It's not lying in the marketing, it was bad initial design philosophy. ARPGs aren't mmos where you fight one boss for 15 minutes. You can still use all the attack speed and movement speed slows you want from nodes and gems, but you won't, because it's fundamentally not fun.

If you think you like the genre, but constantly complain about people being able to go fast, you really don't. You like the IDEA of the genre, just like how people fall in love with the IDEA of someone, rather than who that person actually is

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Herbeh#6842 เขียน:

It's not lying in the marketing, it was bad initial design philosophy. ARPGs aren't mmos where you fight one boss for 15 minutes. You can still use all the attack speed and movement speed slows you want from nodes and gems, but you won't, because it's fundamentally not fun.

If you think you like the genre, but constantly complain about people being able to go fast, you really don't. You like the IDEA of the genre, just like how people fall in love with the IDEA of someone, rather than who that person actually is

Show me the game making bible that says these things.
Metal Gear Rising and Bayonetta are ARPGs, and I can have 15m long boss fights and be challenged and engaged the entire time.

You've just been conditioned into thinking ARPG = mindless loot pinata slot machine simulator blow up screen fest from every modern ARPG being this.

Good action combat:
https://youtu.be/bzw3pR6-bO8?t=1916