GGG which lane are you on: Mindless Blasting or "Visceral" combat

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Jideament#2792 เขียน:

And then CoC came and RainbowNuke after it. People hyped it. Boom. Another anime game for Chinese.

Please don't remind me CoC. It was one of the main reasons Cyclone kept getting nerfs over the years.

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Herbeh#6842 เขียน:

APRGs as a genre cannot have slow "visceral" combat, it's antithetical to the entire genre. Blasting at the speed of sound is the entire point and there's nothing that can possibly be done to change that when the whole point is a nearly endless progression of your character.

Nothing, even low drop rates, feels as antithetical to character progression as slow ass combat and huge pointless zones

Herbeh you've been here as long as I have. You remember when poe 1 was a much slower game.

When you used to do Fellshrine runs with an mf culler.

When Vaal Oversoul was released and was so rippy.

When a pack of blue monsters could kill you if you weren't careful.

Heck a ton of Arps from the past like Titan Quest were slow. You weren't zerged with 1000s monsters the moment you spawn into a zone and take 1 step forward. It was small packs at a time. If you ran ahead without clearing you risked being overwhelmed which is on the player. Playing slow and moving from 1 pack to the next was how the games were made. You actually got to interact with the monsters and see their abilities. Now it's just throw a bunch of monsters on screen and let the players blast away.

It's more a current trend of Arpgs all turning to this same formula. Arpgs can, and had been, slower paced and methodical for years.

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Grayeye#1799 เขียน:

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KäsePizza#3007 เขียน:

Also you can have slow combat AND character progression AND appropriate loot you know? Nobody here wants a ruthless mode with shitty droprates and just 10x life on everything I would think.

No you can not.

Im thinking about making a new thread just to hammer in this fact to you guys, exposing the logical fallacies in such a view.

It is like asking for a nice ski resort, with alot of natural snow, in a warm desert so you can both ski and enjoy walking around in the considerable heat. One demands warmth, the other cold.

here it easy to see the problem, right? But you are all blind to the problem to combine slow combat AND character progression AND appropriate loot. here the problem is even worse, and the conflict larger.

Go ahead and make the thread. We're all here to discuss.

Your ski resort analogy has nothing to do with what we are talking about. If anything ur analogy has everything to do with what GGG is doing. Trying to introduce combo gameplay, situational gems, mechanics like parry/active block, situational nodes on the passive tree. Then making combat be just a mindless aoe spam fest. All those things only work in a slower game, but we get poe 1 type mobs.`

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dautry#3521 เขียน:

I would like to see POE1 setup for mindless blasting while POE2 a bit more methodical.

The boss fights now are trivial and the actual killers are yellow abyss monsters with degen at their feet -- AKA arch-nemesis 3.0? All the streamers and stuff just melting things -- that's not going to hold anyone's attention. There is no actual strategy in this game other than blast.

This is not the way.

This is what we were led to believe. The reason why they separated the games was cause they were heading in 2 different directions, and they didn't want to destroy the game some people loved.

Now look where we are. Rebooting the same game but with a "2" in front of it.

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There are many great things in 0.3 but the game-play loop isn't one of the better items.

GGG should be more active in the pre-release phase. I expect more balance and polish to happen during the patch. There are some mechs in the game right now that are just flat broken. The approach of just letting the patch ride just doesn't seem like something to keep people playing so we end up in these long cycles of meh. I'm waiting for POE1 patch now because I'm done with 0.3.

It's boring and not challenging and it's just more POE1 stuff that didn't work the first time making it back into POE2. Not cool. If we gonna clone POE1 then just actually merge it and let's stop pretending the games are different.

POE2 is "regressing" to what POE1 already is. They are not different games on the current trajectory.

I thought it would be constant balance patches, giving people free full respecs when they make changes so they aren't scrambling for gold if their build doesn't work. Instead it's treated like leagues because people don't like when their builds are destroyed.

Then they should make it clear that there will be constant changes and if you don't like ur build being destroyed it would be best to return when Open Access hits.

Treating EA like leagues sells more supporter packs and mtx but is worse for balance. Treating EA like a constantly changing realm is great for balance but worse for selling mtx/supporter packs.

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iHiems#0168 เขียน:

Cute but wrong

There's nothing that says you can't. The ski resort comparison is so ????

It's obviously possible to have slower and meaningful combat with good progression, there's no lack of games out there that do exactly that. You just have to increase value per encounter

Correct. Less monsters that are more durable. Players get to dance with the monsters and see their abilities. More quality encounters (less monsters with a back and forth between players and monster) than quantity of encounters (fill the screen with 10000s mobs and give players access to screen wide aoe and dmg to kill everything in 1 click)

Player power is out of hand. I don't think giving monsters 100000x more hp is the answer either cause the same problem still remains. The encounter is still approached the same way (the player moving as fast as possible spamming their aoe), but now you need 3 clicks of ur skill to kill rather than 1. You go from mindlessly blasting with 1 click per screen to mindlessly blasting with 3 clicks per screen.

- You still won't use combos
- You still won't parry/active block.
- You still won't have any visual clarity
- Monsters will still be scarier dead than alive
- The abyss monsters will still have shroud walker and teleport on you with bubonic plague, now you need 2 extra clicks to kill them.

The same gameplay loop still exist, but with 2 extra clicks per screen now.

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I've read the comments about a possible hybrid of keeping mobs the same while bosses get harder and become a true challenge, and I don't mind that personally. However, many things would have to change for that to be possible, starting from movement speed

A boss fight would have to be zoomed out with a gigantic boss or something along those lines, this way movement speed isn't as impactful. This is only one of the problems though

I said earlier in my post some people say things like "zoom zoom for regular mobs and methodical for bosses", but ur insane speed, dmg, and movement don't disappear when you enter the boss room.

The same problem remains. How do you kill poe 1 type characters? Let's assume you were a monster, the players could be considered "unfair" from ur perspective. How do kill unfair players? You need unfair monster mechanics.

The on death effects, random slows, ground degens, etc aren't a result of monster power being too high. They are a result of player power being too high and needing equal unfair mechanics to try to counter them.

If players are unfair to regular mobs, the bosses need unfair mechanics to counter cause the player's strength doesn't go away when they enter the boss room.

We wouldn't need on death effects everywhere, monsters with shroud walker and degens that kill in 2 seconds, huge burst dmg from monsters, if players weren't so strong to the point that only "unfair" mechanics could kill them.

This is why I say you cannot do "moving at the speed of light aoe fullscreen 1 button clear" for monsters, and methodical for bosses. How the players interact with the regular mobs and the counters the regular mobs need to kill players will also be reflected in the boss room.

Unfair player creations require unfair mechanics from both the regular mobs and the boss.

GGG is designing mechanics for a slower game with slower monsters and bosses, but the players AND monsters are playing a faster game that demands unfair mechanics to counter the players and monsters.

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Personally, my problem isn't that it's only too zoom zoom, but that there's absolutely no challenge anywhere past the campaign (and the campaign bosses were also nerfed to oblivion anyway)

But then you have Jonathan saying things like "we don't want stuff too hardcore because that would gatekeep certain builds from playing it" while not realizing this already happens and will happen anyway

"oh but play this, play that and the game will be hard. Don't use this, don't use that and the game will be hard"

It's an online game. At least for the majority of people, those who don't play SSF, it's an online game

This. GGG not realizing that the poe 1 gameplay already gatekeeps a bunch of the stuff they've designed. So many skill gems and support gems are dead cause they don't have the clear and dmg. So many mechanics will never be used cause in vampire survivors world, aoe, dmg, and speed reign supreme.

I say this as someone who purposely made meme shitty stuff in poe 1 on purpose. The aoe blasting full screen farming the same map over and over loop of poe has never interested me.

I kept hoping that "maybe the game will be more mechanical/engaging if I made meme stuff". NOPE. The game was still the same. GGG hasn't designed poe 1 from a mechanical perspective for a over a decade now. Even when I went slower the mobs didn't go "Oh I see ur going slow. We won't zerg you as hard or explode or death, or release random slows on the ground, and deal less dmg to you". It was the same blast the whole screen as fast as possible or be killed gameplay, but this time with a build that wasn't trying to achieve the same 1 button spammage the game was made for.

I was trying to play the game in a way that wasn't designed for my playstyle. Poe 1 is mindless blasting and nothing else. The "difficulty" people speak off comes from learning the mechanics how things work, but there is no 'mechanical" difficulty in the game.

I had been a serial reroller in poe 1 for so many years because of that. The reason why I kept playing was because I always had ingame friends I conversed with while we played. Linking each other our finds and shit-talking.

Now tho I cant bring myself to play poe 1. Hence why I was excited for poe 2 cause they kept mentioning the 1 thing I had been looking for "engaging combat".

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Herbeh#6842 เขียน:

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KäsePizza#3007 เขียน:

Maybe thats what you understand by ARPG. Imo it can also mean slow and visceral combat. I don't feel any action in the current PoE2 endgame, maxbe you do - but that just means what you want of an ARPG is different to what I want.

Also you can have slow combat AND character progression AND appropriate loot you know? Nobody here wants a ruthless mode with shitty droprates and just 10x life on everything I would think.

You think you can, but you can't. You're trying to force a square peg in a star hole when the most simple solution is best. Your take is peak midwit and anyone who understands the genre OR just wants to blast knows it.

Ofc you can't have it if the only thing you see as an ARPG is zoom-zoom gameplay.
If you have engaging combat, maybe it just would not be what you see as a ARPG. That's fine, but I still would.

You know, ARPG is a genre — those are like big buckets where a lot of games fit in. And in this case it's made up by Action and RPG. First thing you find in the wiki entry for action games:

An action game is a video game genre that emphasizes physical challenges, including hand–eye coordination and reaction time.

Don't see that in PoE1 nor PoE2 right now — perhaps these are the ones not fitting.


But enough about ARPG's and all of this — because in the end it's not even relevant. PoE2 is not defined by being an ARPG, but it's an ARPG (or isn't one) because of its gameplay.
So it's useless saying an ARPG can't have this or that — because PoE2 can have it, perhaps it stops being an ARPG in your world then. But your world isn't the “right” one, and everybody else who thinks different is just “wrong” or a “peak midwit”.

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AintCare#6513 เขียน:

i wonder how many things would we have today if everyone would have this mindset. i know for a fact we wont have air travel- that's sorcery! and its def not 'means of travel' category- it doesn't even use a horse!

Bad strawman. What you're saying is horror stories don't need to be scary, they can be about a whimsical couple falling in love. Anyone on either end of the bell curve knows that would make it a romcom, but some 105IQ midwit will try to reason why it's still horror... normally with an embarrassing strawman.

+1

I need to know if it's worth investing more into this game or not.
If the plan is to turn Path of Exile 2 into Path of Exile 1 brainless 1-click gameplay, I'm out.

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your right, i might even get in shit just replying to this. moderation works in mysterious way here

^ argumentum ad hominem — just ignore him, it won't get us anywhere…