GGG which lane are you on: Mindless Blasting or "Visceral" combat

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IonSugeRau1#1069 เขียน:

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Soulsniper1313#7576 เขียน:

I get what you mean. What build did you make that is working? Ascendency and main skill wise

Hmm I guess the most notable one was in 0.1. Nothing extremely revolutionary but it was pretty fun. Defenses were rather lacking at the time but I think it would work really well now with the weapon swap changes and armor buffs. I'm not on pc rn so forgive me if I don't recall certain names and stuff. I was using those unique gloves which make it so strength satisfy skill requirements. In short, titan focusing on stun with staff using the windy sweep thing and breaking armor with it as well as stunning + vaulting impact for quicker stun build-up. For bosses or tougher enemies I would weapon swap into sunder with maces with giant's blood. I also had lots of crit damage and all the things that made it slow but powerful on skill tree swap for it.

There it goes, i feel like I want to login to experiment, but just as quickly I remember again that there's no point to it with that combat... sigh.

I wanted to try so many things with weapon swap...

What did you try for .3?

The problem is still the same since 0.1.
The game has PoE1 enemy design past the first 2 zones of act 1, so the best way to deal with them is in a PoE1 manner.

The "slow and methodical" combat falls apart so quickly once most mobs start to become faster than the player and it just turns into "kill everything before it kills you".
I still say that, keeping the mobs like this can work, if the players actually had access to defense to tank through all these enemies.

The game is just pure glass cannons until high investment, so of course it would just be best to go all in on damage to one shot everything before you can get hit once.
How many times is the best advice for any enemy just "kill it faster"?

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Soulsniper1313#7576 เขียน:

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IonSugeRau1#1069 เขียน:

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Soulsniper1313#7576 เขียน:

I get what you mean. What build did you make that is working? Ascendency and main skill wise

Hmm I guess the most notable one was in 0.1. Nothing extremely revolutionary but it was pretty fun. Defenses were rather lacking at the time but I think it would work really well now with the weapon swap changes and armor buffs. I'm not on pc rn so forgive me if I don't recall certain names and stuff. I was using those unique gloves which make it so strength satisfy skill requirements. In short, titan focusing on stun with staff using the windy sweep thing and breaking armor with it as well as stunning + vaulting impact for quicker stun build-up. For bosses or tougher enemies I would weapon swap into sunder with maces with giant's blood. I also had lots of crit damage and all the things that made it slow but powerful on skill tree swap for it.

There it goes, i feel like I want to login to experiment, but just as quickly I remember again that there's no point to it with that combat... sigh.

I wanted to try so many things with weapon swap...

What did you try for .3?

Nothing particularly fancy for 0.3. I was already feeling defeated with the direction of the game so far and after reading the patch notes I could already tell things were going in the wrong direction even further in terms of combat. I started with the idea that I want to see what Act 4 looks like and wanting to try trade and that was about it so I didn't really plan for much. I just looked at tactician noticed how they've added a passive which stated "40% MORE immobilization build-up"... I was already certain that was going to be bullshit broken the moment I saw the word more there (yet again more multipliers.. what a surprise)... so I rolled with that thinking that totems with weapon swap would also be very powerful... and it was.. I ended up playing pin totems with grenades... really nothing special. I've had all kinds of ideas aside from that but I don't really feel like trying them.. such as tactician hollow palm lightning monk focusing on electrocute... but really the result will be similar and unfun so I don't have a reason to bother with it.

Another thing I wanted to try and it looked cool was infernalist demon form with reap. It makes it look like you're actually playing melee while being in demon form... but again... I don't have any drive to try anything anymore.

Based on some of their design decisions, my conclusion was that they where aiming for visceral combat and messed it up badly.

Getting the combat where I think they wanted it means controlling player power, you're supposed to use the baked in combo mechanics for burst damage, but the balancing is all over the place, some don't align monster speed and many cases player just don't want to be forced into a rigid skill rotation for a ridiculously long campaign. They are arpg players and they like being efficient and powerful, not every arpg has cater to that crowd, but understandably of it has "path of exile" in the title then there's going to certain expectations and playerbase crossover.

I think where in the process now of GGG fighting a losing battle against the zoomers. GGG would have to completely gut the build creativity to achieve what they want, And it just won't be worth it. A mid league nerf to lightning arrow would be disastrous, a nerf at 0.4 might work but then the zoomers will just move to next most efficient skill, and continue the cycle until all the zoomers either leave or are playing the "right" way.

Probably the only way to "fix" it is entirely rework the way monsters balanced. Much less packsize, but increased loot/strength of monsters.
Probably if people get more "divine/hour" in endgame while killing monsters at speed you do in act1-2 will keep the game from negative feedback. Since players like to be effective and loot more, not the zooming itself.

The mobs should be balanced the way players won't need the screen-wide aoe and gigaspeed to be effective.

May be the game should look zoomy in certain endgame content which you can skip/replace with something else like you can in PoE1 if you don't like it. Or on certain Atlas builds, while it won't be much more effective than "visceral" slower builds. Probably even less, since you'd reveal the atlas much faster and can find more POI instead.

I don't really think the waystone management is THAT exciting, and people enjoy it too much, so the slower map clear with higher reward is mostly preferable.

It’s a weird thing to want a “slower, visceral combat” but also have “mob density “ on waystones.
It doesn’t jive at all.
You can’t really blame the DE players when skills like whirling assault exists.
It’s beyond useless.

I don’t get it.

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Nikuksis#6962 เขียน:

Probably the only way to "fix" it is entirely rework the way monsters balanced. Much less packsize, but increased loot/strength of monsters.
Probably if people get more "divine/hour" in endgame while killing monsters at speed you do in act1-2 will keep the game from negative feedback. Since players like to be effective and loot more, not the zooming itself.

The mobs should be balanced the way players won't need the screen-wide aoe and gigaspeed to be effective.

May be the game should look zoomy in certain endgame content which you can skip/replace with something else like you can in PoE1 if you don't like it. Or on certain Atlas builds, while it won't be much more effective than "visceral" slower builds. Probably even less, since you'd reveal the atlas much faster and can find more POI instead.

I don't really think the waystone management is THAT exciting, and people enjoy it too much, so the slower map clear with higher reward is mostly preferable.

Absolutely, mob density, item quantity/rarity and combat speed are a triad.
Can't have sloggish combat and stingy drops in a sea of whites that can kill you but can't reward you, that's the worst of both worlds (AKA 0.2.0).

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Skyvortex#7923 เขียน:

It’s a weird thing to want a “slower, visceral combat” but also have “mob density “ on waystones.
It doesn’t jive at all.
You can’t really blame the DE players when skills like whirling assault exists.
It’s beyond useless.

I don’t get it.

I mean the best way is to hvave dense mobpacks optional and for very late game only. It should be like optional content or atlas config for those who like zooming. And it should not be mandatory for effective game and only for godlike gear may be.
Like in very late game you probably can focus either on farming trash at gigaspeed (like the only way it is now) OR fight strong packs and bosses with the same farming effectiveness.
I admit that balancing this will be a hell tho.
But this is the only way to please both crowds, the zooming blasters and engaging slow combat witnesses in one game.

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GabrielCorso#5386 เขียน:

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Nikuksis#6962 เขียน:

Probably the only way to "fix" it is entirely rework the way monsters balanced. Much less packsize, but increased loot/strength of monsters.
Probably if people get more "divine/hour" in endgame while killing monsters at speed you do in act1-2 will keep the game from negative feedback. Since players like to be effective and loot more, not the zooming itself.

The mobs should be balanced the way players won't need the screen-wide aoe and gigaspeed to be effective.

May be the game should look zoomy in certain endgame content which you can skip/replace with something else like you can in PoE1 if you don't like it. Or on certain Atlas builds, while it won't be much more effective than "visceral" slower builds. Probably even less, since you'd reveal the atlas much faster and can find more POI instead.

I don't really think the waystone management is THAT exciting, and people enjoy it too much, so the slower map clear with higher reward is mostly preferable.

Absolutely, mob density, item quantity/rarity and combat speed are a triad.
Can't have sloggish combat and stingy drops in a sea of whites that can kill you but can't reward you, that's the worst of both worlds (AKA 0.2.0).

I'd also argue it needs a big skill rework. Remove all the baked in synergies, and prioritise making utility and mobility skills. Escape moves and gap closers that can weaved together naturally like in the old huntress gameplay, I think that's the only way, to keep some of the combat vision. Changing disengage from an actual disengage to charge harvester after a parry was just dumb

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I'd also argue it needs a big skill rework. Remove all the baked in synergies, and prioritise making utility and mobility skills. Escape moves and gap closers that can weaved together naturally like in the old huntress gameplay, I think that's the only way, to keep some of the combat vision. Changing disengage from an actual disengage to charge harvester after a parry was just dumb

I'd play huntress exclusively if the melee branch had mobility skills similar to Riven in LoL, tbh.

This game is closer to greatness than to failure, but the devs need to get their ducks in a row.