[Feedback] Giga-Nerf Energy Shield in Patch 0.4.0

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Legioona#1076 เขียน:

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Oinkaments#6390 เขียน:

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Legioona#1076 เขียน:

It is a balance problem.

No it is not.

A high pick/usage rate for ES can reflect accessibility, passive-tree and item synergies, or hybrid playstyles, not automatic overpoweredness. The thread itself notes many people pick ES in hybrid setups, which skews "usage" numbers. You can’t treat raw representation as a full diagnosis.

So if 100% of players would use ES, you would not see it either as a balance problem? Instead it would reflect accessibility, passive-tree and item synergies, or hybrid playstyles?

If literally 100% of players converged on ES, then yes, that would be a balance problem. But not because "nerf ES" is automatically the right move. It would mean the mechanical incentives behind ES are too far ahead of the other defences. The fix then isn’t to gut ES across the board (which just deletes ES-only archetypes), but to raise armour/evasion (or redesign how their formulas scale) until players actually have a reason to pick them. Balance isn’t about dragging the strongest option into the mud, it’s about ensuring there are multiple viable choices. If all roads lead to ES, the problem is with how armour/evasion are designed, not with ES existing.

You dont buff things to a broken state because something else exists in a broken state.


Thats not how balancing works

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Mashgesture#2912 เขียน:

You dont buff things to a broken state because something else exists in a broken state.


Thats not how balancing works

Deleting ES-only archetypes is not balance because some other hybrid classes use it. We can go on this loop forever if you wish.

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Oinkaments#6390 เขียน:

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Mashgesture#2912 เขียน:

You dont buff things to a broken state because something else exists in a broken state.


Thats not how balancing works

Deleting ES-only archetypes is not balance because some other hybrid classes use it. We can go on this loop forever if you wish.

Nerfing ES numbers and/or the mechanics protecting so many users at the top of the tree is not deleting ES users.


Lets not be disingenuous with our arguments into hyperbole

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Oinkaments#6390 เขียน:

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Mashgesture#2912 เขียน:

You dont buff things to a broken state because something else exists in a broken state.


Thats not how balancing works

Deleting ES-only archetypes is not balance because some other hybrid classes use it. We can go on this loop forever if you wish.

I would just stop indulging them, I think all of their points have already been argued against multiple times. OP just mostly ignores them and then says something someone has already been over to try and keep the thread going.
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To OP:

Pointing at something and saying it's broken is just not necessary. GGG will nerf the strongest builds, both defensively and offensively in 0.4 regardless. They want the meta to shift so the competitive players explore new things.

Comparing your build to others is a pitfall that should be avoided. If you have a problem with progression or scaling on your build in some way, that is feedback that is probably more valuable to give.

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Mashgesture#2912 เขียน:

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Oinkaments#6390 เขียน:

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Mashgesture#2912 เขียน:

You dont buff things to a broken state because something else exists in a broken state.


Thats not how balancing works

Deleting ES-only archetypes is not balance because some other hybrid classes use it. We can go on this loop forever if you wish.

Nerfing ES numbers and/or the mechanics protecting so many users at the top of the tree is not deleting ES users.


Lets not be disingenuous with our arguments into hyperbole

So because you see BIG NUMBERS at the top you automatically think it's broken. Someone even mentionned he saw 40k energy shield. If thats the case then there is a major trade-off in DPS. If I invest too much in ES in my archetype, my DPS goes down the drain real fast.

This whole discussion is completely absurd. GGG knows about trade-offs and you do too. If there are some broken nodes like CI per example, address those, not ES itself. There's no hyperbole here, nerfing ES like OP propose would lead to the ruination of some archetypes.

I even saw an argument where ES should not have elemental resistance and OP said "yeah this could be a solution". What are you guys smoking? This should have been automatically called and pointed out but no, it was met as if it had any logical ground to it. This thread is so toxic on so many level, it's by far the most toxic thread on this forum right now and is only able to stay alive because people are threading within the bounds of TOS.

Gutting ES would absolutely lead to a massive uproar and would stain GGG reputation maybe to a point of no return. If they do something so savage like they've done with 0.2, people will never forgive them. I certainly would never forgive it.

It would simply display that the mob wins.

I have said this and this is not me putting on a tinfoil hat. All of the accounts pushing for this should be investiguated by a team to make sure it dosen't come from a rival company that seeks GGG destruction.

Yes ES is good and that's a good thing. If you want to have armour/evasion better then ask GGG for it. Stop asking GGG to destroy people fun because your archetype dosen't have access to those nodes.

I will never understand people being salty over the fact that some class do things better than theirs. Just ask for your class to be better and stop trying to gut the fun of other classes.

To acheive high numbers with decent DPS you have to spend hundreds of divs and that's a lot of hourws of gaming. If you only go ES without DPS, you won't kill shit or it will take forever to kill.

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AverBeg7#1689 เขียน:

I would just stop indulging them, I think all of their points have already been argued against multiple times. OP just mostly ignores them and then says something someone has already been over to try and keep the thread going.

Yes and that's why I know this is sheer trolling.

I'm 100% being honest when I say I believe some people in this thread are trying to ruin GGG reputation by baiting them into committing to a change that would enrage players so much that the game might never recover.

They are going on a forever loop, ignoring anything that is brought up to a basic function which is "it needs balancing", "it's broken".

Absolute tunnel vision if you ask me. This is the best well-crafted thread to rage bait people into envisioning the complete destruction of POE 2.

[delete]

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Oinkaments#6390 เขียน:

So because you see BIG NUMBERS at the top you automatically think it's broken.

Putting words into peoples mouth does not help for a constructive discussion.


I have stated what my issue(s) are with ES in its current state and it goes beyond


"I saw a big number and dont like what I see"



Not what I said at all.

Position of passive nodes on the tree sort of matters, which is what the other guy pointed out. ES nodes are all on the top half of the tree. This is where most people's builds are right now so they end up using ES as a defense.

Eg. Almost every spell/minion build will travel through the top half of the tree. Bow builds have access to the top right on the tree which has ES and Evasion nodes. So many will use it as a defense.

There are zero ES nodes on the bottom half of the tree. This is also where nearly all the armour nodes are. Which builds travel there? Mace builds and a few builds which use that "nearby enemy tech". Not many players are playing these compared to spells, minions, bows and crossbows.

So there is a disproportionate amount of players choosing ES as a defense layer purely because most of the current builds path through the ES areas.


When GGG releases stuff like swords which would be on the bottom of the tree, we'll start to see more players going with armour and life.