Five Weeks into 0.2.0, POE2 is Down 93.2% Players All Time & 83.9% from Patch Launch

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Hyperspacing#5593 เขียน:

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cyranis#7939 เขียน:

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Hyperspacing#5593 เขียน:

The problem with people like you is you think that GGG is so stupid that they would intentionally destroy the game and keep moving in the direction they are going without player support.

I want to believe you, however.
In the Ziz interview from April Jonathan said the most absurd tone def stuff, it makes me wonder if what you posted above can even be true.

Did you watch the same interview? What I saw was Ziz complaining about a lot of stuff without adding anything of real value or substance other than stuff like "Monsters are to fast" and then Jonathan asking for specific examples and then explaining why you want x thing to be the case. It seemed Ziz, among other streamers, were faced with a perfect problem...POE 2 showcased that they are not actually that good at games. Hence why they flock towards the games that typically require no skill and you can just face smash everything (see POE 1 or LE).

When it comes to GGG ruining their business...no business in the history of mankind has ever decided one day to just destroy their business model and go bankrupt. GGG has access to leagues of data beyond anything we have access to and every single patch reflects that. I would bet that a huge portion (80-150k) of people have the stand alone client and are actively playing and enjoying their experience.

We also, have to understand that almost 95% of the complaints on this forum are coming from the same 20-30 people and it NOT reflective of the larger community. You can just scour the feedback forum and find the same 20-30 people that I am speaking of. Those same people were faced with the same dilemma that the streamers faced...Their were forced to face the fact that they were not that great at the game and cannot accept that Death in a video game is a moment to reflect on how and why you died and overcome that challenge. I got 300+ deaths so far making a home-brew build and each death took me closer to making that build perfect.

I love POE 2 more than I loved POE 1. Is it perfect? Not by a long shot and each patch just makes the game better and better.

You realize streamers like ziz and Ben play hardcore right? Comments on MS, defenses, resistances, all of these things have a significantly different context than standard gameplay. I wouldn't consider anyone that plays POE1 and POE2 exclusively in hardcore bad at the game, especially if they regularly play endgame content. Ben is one of the best ARPG players and has significant issues with this game, so I would not consider player skill a viable disclaimer on an opinion of the game.

Are you playing endgame with frequent deaths and having fun? I barely die and find the tower juicing / mapping system, so bad it prevents me from grinding endgame. I'm not a POE2 Doomer, but people complain when systems are bad at the foundation. In the current game state mapping, defenses, MS, crafting, build variety, and endgame content are foundationally bad and people are vocal about fixing it. Painting rainbows on a burning canvas doesn't make the problem better.

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E13ctric#2529 เขียน:

You realize streamers like ziz and Ben play hardcore right? Comments on MS, defenses, resistances, all of these things have a significantly different context than standard gameplay. I wouldn't consider anyone that plays POE1 and POE2 exclusively in hardcore bad at the game, especially if they regularly play endgame content. Ben is one of the best ARPG players and has significant issues with this game, so I would not consider player skill a viable disclaimer on an opinion of the game.

Are you playing endgame with frequent deaths and having fun? I barely die and find the tower juicing / mapping system, so bad it prevents me from grinding endgame. I'm not a POE2 Doomer, but people complain when systems are bad at the foundation. In the current game state mapping, defenses, MS, crafting, build variety, and endgame content are foundationally bad and people are vocal about fixing it. Painting rainbows on a burning canvas doesn't make the problem better.

I use to die every other map in end game but now its maybe 1 deaths ever 15-20 maps and yes I am still having fun. Its not about deaths for me tbh. Its exploring my homebrewed build and having fun.

You can complain about a game and say X,Y,Z need to be buffed/nerfed and that is completely fine. My only complaint is when people who don't even play the game try their damn hardest to turn this back to POE 1 lol

I give you the crafting for sure. It def can not be as RNG but I've never been much of a crafter tbh.

End game is great compared to the boring end game in POE 1. You can disagree with me and thats fine but I think POE 2 end game is leagues past POE 1.

Build variety is something I never understood. People point to the fact that a large portion is using LS but that doesn't mean other builds are not viable. I don't know a single person who is not using a off-meta build and not having a blast.

that last sentence is gold and I like it lol

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kumogakure#7381 เขียน:

Johnathan's take of using himself as the test for whether something is fun, is fine if this was an indie project.

But it isn't. I really can't understand what made him think he should be the one single source for the definition of fun, in such a big game. :(

Pretty insane isn't it..
Am I wrong? No, it's that half a million people are wrong.
/s

Vision this, vision that. Vision didn't even survive the first contact with enemy, I mean audience heh. It 's not vision since changes to dodge and loot patches.

Thanks partly to outrage like in this thread, I might never even know what it actually is. I'm not even saying it would be good, but I'd like to see first, without all the hysteria, blackmail, theatrical leaving and all.

Ofc it's also company's fault, for postponing 1's league and leaving 2 as the only active live service game. Still, all the negative reviews, crying streamers and shouting at the sky before it's even finished, might discourage a lot of people from trying it, which means less money, less work on 1 maybe etc. A vicious cycle, that might also have an impact on devs and their enthusiasm and productivity, I know a few and see how they react to outrage. Contrary to popular belief it's not only money, but also a sense of purpose and respect that drives people.

And it's madness, latest conspiracy theory is slow speed in big zones because, like Ubisoft, they scheme to waste your time and artificially prolong everything. Must be the type of plan where they hide in plain sight, behind actual artificial prolonging of making you play the acts twice, because of how the campaign is not finished yet. Kind of shows it might look different in full game, and maybe wait and see is better than loose mind now.

Big zones themselves, the rpg dungeons used to be big in the 90s, but then shrank and shrank because of demands of graphics, biome diversity, theme park design etc etc. I want an endless one, I want a procedurally generated country per waypoint, this here is nothing, bare minimum for progress, but somehow is still bad. Also what's the difference between 3 small zones separated with loading screen and a single bigger one, other than the theme park brain screaming boredom.

The critics like OP here, say scrap the whole game, or rework, make into 1 etc, which is actually right, in a way that they can see, that the game as is, is built for sth different, and a bad foundation for what they want.

So, as is it ridiculous to expect GGG to scrap it and build anew, it also shows how trying to compromise will ultimately result in an inferior version of PoE 1, with neither meaningful action of 2 nor glorious freedom and scope of 1. Additional risk being, 1 will die when 2 becomes acceptable enough for the legacy crowd.

I really enjoy playing 2, simply as an arpg where you have to avoid stuff, pay some attention, one where I don't have to play hardcore to be in danger and for death to matter, but still there is some power to acquire, not being the forever small scale, balanced action game. I'd like it to retain this basic concepts, don't think it will, but that is all.

I have serious gripes with it too, I really hated Jonathan suggesting the class is played wrong, I want both action and rpg depth, it went against the sandbox part that is crucial to PoE for me. I can accept combos based on mechanics, but might have a hard time with ones based on planned interactions of particular skills, and general demand of a playstyle to be successful.

I don't scream at the sky about it though, I don't know what he really meant (would be nice to see though), I don't know if it's really that level of control they want, and I don't really believe they will be able to exercise it if so, given the final number of skills (even limited to weapons), classes, loot and the incoming dozens of leagues. I also don't think I can change it anyway, and am not sure if I should, as maybe they see sth I don't. So, I wait and see.

I also don't loose my mind over patches, especially when numbered 0 point 2. You have to swing stuff into extremes to find the limits, when is the time, if not early access. Full blown half billion dollar AAA titles launch barely playable, without balance and full of design mistakes, and those are closed experiences, not sandbox arpgs with endgames and extremely ambitious ideas, in this case bit of trying to merge fire with water.

Anyway, if you let them work in relative peace, instead of expecting 1000h endgame ready experience out of the gate, and the end result is bad and people leave after release, the game will be changed anyway, and quite fast. If it's bad enough, it will be changed sooner actually, even without your attempts at disruption and bending to your preferences.

If it succeeds but you don't like the direction, might still mean they have more money to support and upgrade 1, and more goodwill to do. Maybe, maybe not, but then, if it's all conspiracy to waste your time, ruined by Tencent, run by incompetent drones, pay to win is behind the corner, vision trampling stone, water and flesh, PoE 1 dead and despised, then it's all lost anyway.

So I say wait and see

Game doesn't work when nearly everyone is playing the same type of thing, often wants the same type of equipment, but the drop rates are balanced for scarcity and trading. In a game such as D4, it doesn't matter if everyone is playing the same thing, because the drops are tuned around self-found. Here, you find a weapon with +6 skills and some other desirable stats, but you don't want it and can't trade it to someone who does, because nobody wants it. PoE 1 partially got around this by having far more deterministic crafting, so everyone could, theoretically, get some gear going themselves for the build the want to play.

Bad balance combined with ultra-trade-reliant loot acquisition simply doesn't work.

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Hyperspacing#5593 เขียน:

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E13ctric#2529 เขียน:

You realize streamers like ziz and Ben play hardcore right? Comments on MS, defenses, resistances, all of these things have a significantly different context than standard gameplay. I wouldn't consider anyone that plays POE1 and POE2 exclusively in hardcore bad at the game, especially if they regularly play endgame content. Ben is one of the best ARPG players and has significant issues with this game, so I would not consider player skill a viable disclaimer on an opinion of the game.

Are you playing endgame with frequent deaths and having fun? I barely die and find the tower juicing / mapping system, so bad it prevents me from grinding endgame. I'm not a POE2 Doomer, but people complain when systems are bad at the foundation. In the current game state mapping, defenses, MS, crafting, build variety, and endgame content are foundationally bad and people are vocal about fixing it. Painting rainbows on a burning canvas doesn't make the problem better.

I use to die every other map in end game but now its maybe 1 deaths ever 15-20 maps and yes I am still having fun. Its not about deaths for me tbh. Its exploring my homebrewed build and having fun.

You can complain about a game and say X,Y,Z need to be buffed/nerfed and that is completely fine. My only complaint is when people who don't even play the game try their damn hardest to turn this back to POE 1 lol

I give you the crafting for sure. It def can not be as RNG but I've never been much of a crafter tbh.

End game is great compared to the boring end game in POE 1. You can disagree with me and thats fine but I think POE 2 end game is leagues past POE 1.

Build variety is something I never understood. People point to the fact that a large portion is using LS but that doesn't mean other builds are not viable. I don't know a single person who is not using a off-meta build and not having a blast.

that last sentence is gold and I like it lol

Yeah, I'm not a Doomer on POE2 and i'd like to see how the game is at a final product to fairly judge it. I've given it nearly 1k hours in its current state. I definitely don't agree that the endgame state is great. It's early access and that's fine - I just dont understand why i have RNG in my map rolling, my tablets for juicing, and in tower path/placement. When you pair that with the fact that maps' difficulty (# of mods) doesnt scale up your quantity/rarity of drops, im just puzzled how this made it to endgame. Also annoying shit like interfacing with anointment window for applying deli to maps and getting RSI from recombining maps/tablets makes me unable stomach grinding for endgame for hours on end in endgame. There's other stuff like atlas strength, pinnacle boss difficulty, chase uniques, farming strats, but all that stuff comes with time and balance.

I think you know what i mean, but that last statement means there are problems and make it better. I'm not gonna sugarcoat it and say this is a good endgame state - it can get better and they need feedback. Streamers like Fub/Ben/Ziz/Sushi all play POE for hundreds of hours each league and them/their viewers leaving is indicative that it should be improved. No ill will, but saying the game is great isn't how I view a game at this state should be improved. But it's fine to disagree. Its how POE1 got great after a decade lol.

I think most of us are tripping. This is an early access game and that's very evident. Stop treating it like it's been out 15 years and reset your expectations.

I'm as grumpy as they come but we were not sold a bill of goods that we didn't sign up for -- it was clearly stated the game is not finished, much work is to be done, and that we bought into (or paid) to basically be play testers.

Now where I think folks get it right is the things that GGG has decided to prioritize and the seemingly bipolar approach to classes. It seems like there is no cohesive vision around how they actually want the game to feel. To see extremely little done for left side of tree was incredibly disappointing.

... but hey, it's only 0.2. At this rate they'll have a playable game in 2 years or so. :D

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dautry#3521 เขียน:

I think most of us are tripping. This is an early access game and that's very evident. Stop treating it like it's been out 15 years and reset your expectations.

I'm as grumpy as they come but we were not sold a bill of goods that we didn't sign up for -- it was clearly stated the game is not finished, much work is to be done, and that we bought into (or paid) to basically be play testers.

Now where I think folks get it right is the things that GGG has decided to prioritize and the seemingly bipolar approach to classes. It seems like there is no cohesive vision around how they actually want the game to feel. To see extremely little done for left side of tree was incredibly disappointing.

... but hey, it's only 0.2. At this rate they'll have a playable game in 2 years or so. :D

Absolutely no one is concerned about the games rough edges, we all know it's early access and such things are expected.

What people are concerned about is the philosophy behind the decisions and the direction the game is going.

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JarlaxleDaerthe#2435 เขียน:

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kumogakure#7381 เขียน:

Johnathan's take of using himself as the test for whether something is fun, is fine if this was an indie project.

But it isn't. I really can't understand what made him think he should be the one single source for the definition of fun, in such a big game. :(

Pretty insane isn't it..
Am I wrong? No, it's that half a million people are wrong.
/s

There is no consensus in the half a million, with evidence in this very thread. You have roughly 2 camps, both accusing the other of being the vocal minority, and grasping at straws with no proper breakdown of the numbers.

As smb firmly in the 2radsquad, or rather wait and see brigade, and a psychotic forum wars aficionado, even I left the forum multiple times already, feeling I'd rather play than post, and that the whole affair here actually diminishes the mystique and joy of the game itself. So, what to say of normal, stable people who enjoy it, doubt they are anywhere near, only an anecdote ofc but still.

Getting ready to do that again btw, dropped a pointless final rant and give myself a few days while I finish stuff in other games, and if it wasn't for the news and special offers sections dangerously close to this place, I'd be certain of my success. What kept me coming back most often is some sense of tester obligation, that I should provide opinion, and not leave the forum to the pack of 2suck to roam, but even though the forum stopped moving at 3 pages a second pace, it still feels inconsequential and a waste of time.

And while the numbers atm are relatively not great, making the 2bad crew quite buoyant, it still has better 24h peak than all time peak of the new Doom. This is weeks into the supposedly most abysmal patch, where streamers left with fanfare, and negative reviews peaked.

Also, while having an unified voice on anything that isn't a straight bug in a playerbase this big is practically impossible, let's say it's really 95% of people in agreement (it isn't btw), and that's what decides now. What is this design method then, from experience, I really have nothing good to say about design by committee, but this is design by mob. It's already more influenced by outside factors outside artistic intent and quality of design than a typical game, being online service and given the model of support, and you want to add pressure.

Also it's entirely possible for, let's say, a single engineer to be right, and half a million customers to be wrong. There's a saying in quality, that a true one is giving the customer stuff that he didn't even know he wanted, another thing that happens a lot with best companies. Not saying this is exactly what happens here though heh.

I say this as not really a biggest fan of what Jonathan says, but him playing his own game and deriving judgement, well if he didn't trust himself, then no point to even sit at the helm and attempt to transform an established game and genre. Not sure how this is surprising tbh.

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Rabarbar_Lichy#7553 เขียน:

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JarlaxleDaerthe#2435 เขียน:

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kumogakure#7381 เขียน:

Johnathan's take of using himself as the test for whether something is fun, is fine if this was an indie project.

But it isn't. I really can't understand what made him think he should be the one single source for the definition of fun, in such a big game. :(

Pretty insane isn't it..
Am I wrong? No, it's that half a million people are wrong.
/s

There is no consensus in the half a million, with evidence in this very thread. You have roughly 2 camps, both accusing the other of being the vocal minority, and grasping at straws with no proper breakdown of the numbers.

As smb firmly in the 2radsquad, or rather wait and see brigade, and a psychotic forum wars aficionado, even I left the forum multiple times already, feeling I'd rather play than post, and that the whole affair here actually diminishes the mystique and joy of the game itself. So, what to say of normal, stable people who enjoy it, doubt they are anywhere near, only an anecdote ofc but still.

Getting ready to do that again btw, dropped a pointless final rant and give myself a few days while I finish stuff in other games, and if it wasn't for the news and special offers sections dangerously close to this place, I'd be certain of my success. What kept me coming back most often is some sense of tester obligation, that I should provide opinion, and not leave the forum to the pack of 2suck to roam, but even though the forum stopped moving at 3 pages a second pace, it still feels inconsequential and a waste of time.

And while the numbers atm are relatively not great, making the 2bad crew quite buoyant, it still has better 24h peak than all time peak of the new Doom. This is weeks into the supposedly most abysmal patch, where streamers left with fanfare, and negative reviews peaked.

Also, while having an unified voice on anything that isn't a straight bug in a playerbase this big is practically impossible, let's say it's really 95% of people in agreement (it isn't btw), and that's what decides now. What is this design method then, from experience, I really have nothing good to say about design by committee, but this is design by mob. It's already more influenced by outside factors outside artistic intent and quality of design than a typical game, being online service and given the model of support, and you want to add pressure.

Also it's entirely possible for, let's say, a single engineer to be right, and half a million customers to be wrong. There's a saying in quality, that a true one is giving the customer stuff that he didn't even know he wanted, another thing that happens a lot with best companies. Not saying this is exactly what happens here though heh.

I say this as not really a biggest fan of what Jonathan says, but him playing his own game and deriving judgement, well if he didn't trust himself, then no point to even sit at the helm and attempt to transform an established game and genre. Not sure how this is surprising tbh.

There is no debate about the half a million players who no longer log into PoE 2. The steam data confirms it.

Enjoy your break!